What is Real Leadership? – with Reb Veale #9

The mBraining Show

Are you doing real leadership?

Reb Veale teaches real Leadership.

She is an mBIT and NLP Trainer and combines this with her skills in people management, from a career in the retail and energy commercial sectors, with occupational psychology to provide support to both private and public sector leaders and organizations, through consultancy, coaching and training.

Reb is passionate about facilitating people to find their own unique solutions and proudly states that she always learns at least as much as her coachees or participants.

Reb set up Reveal Solutions in 2005 and in addition to training and coaching; has co-authored a range of development products with Mark Deacon, such as the GROW Coaching cards, Developing Emotional Intelligence and Successful Appraisal products. They were also collaborated with Grant Soosalu to produce the mBraining Flash Learning and mBIT Coaching cards.

Real Leadership is your responsibility.

Reb believes that leadership is everyone’s responsibility; regardless of job role or title…it starts with how we are choosing to lead our life.

Products to support Real Leadership

Together with Mark Deacon and Grant Soosalu, Reb co-designed the mBraining Coaching Cards and mBraining Flash Learning cards as a way to support new coaches to embody the mBraining philosophy and to assist in supporting the client to engage with their multiple intelligences and discover more about what makes them who they are, and how to navigate change at an identity level.

Supporting Real Leadership

www.revealsolutions.co.uk

Highlights:

00:19 Introduction
06:36 About Reb Veale
16:16 Occupational psychology
24:19 Real vs pseudo leadership
34:25 Either head or heart
42:45 Traditional hierarchical pyramid
50:41 mBIT coaching and flashcards
1:00:12 What people will never forget

Transcription:

Intro 0:04
You’re listening to The mBraining Show, a show about the new field of mBIT, where you’ll get a blend of neuroscience-based research with practical applications for wise living. And now, here’s your host, Bill Gasiamis.

Introduction

Bill 0:19
G’day, everyone. And once again, thank you for listening to The mBraining Show. This is episode eight. And in the three short months that this show has been in existence, it has been downloaded in 16 countries almost 700 times.

Bill 0:36
From the bottom of my heart, I want to thank you so much for making my dream to develop this program a reality. And thank you for your ongoing support and heartwarming feedback.

Bill 0:47
In a moment, we’ll be getting into today’s episode with Reb Veale where we will discuss the difference between real leadership and pseudo leadership. But before we do a small announcement from our very first ever sponsor, revealsolutions.co.uk This podcast is sponsored by reveal solutions.

Bill 1:13
The leading provider of coaching cards for personal development and leadership development in organizations. Reveal solutions is delighted to have collaborated with Grant Soosalu to develop the mBraining flashcards and also the mBIT coaching cards available from the UK website www.revealsolutions.co.uk and from my very own website, www.mbrainingaustralia.com.au.

Bill 1:48
The full range of reveal solutions coaching cards, including the growth coaching model developing emotional intelligence, and successful appraising coaching cards will be available from our new Australian site www.revealsolutions.com.au from January 2016, making these quality educational learning tools already sold in over 36 countries more accessible to the Australian New Zealand and Asia Pacific region.

Bill 2:23
To find out more and to register your interest in our products, drop us an email to info at revealed solutions.co.uk with the subject line product Australia and we will keep you up to date with the launch of the website and product availability. Now on to the show. I’m really excited today.

Bill 2:50
I’m really privileged because I get to speak to people in this program that all over the planet who I have never met before who are awesome. And today we’ve got an amazing mBIT trainer coming to you all the way from the UK. And today I have with me red veal, and Reb is an mBIT coach and trainer.

Bill 3:03
And she’s also an NLP trainer. And she uses her background in people management in the retail and energy commercial sectors and occupational psychology to provide support to both private and public sector leaders, a area that I really want to get to know about and organizations through consultancy, coaching and training.

Bill 3:33
Reb is passionate about facilitating people to find their own unique solutions, and proudly states that she always learns at least as much as her coaches or participants. I love that I love that opportunity to learn from others while you’re teaching them Reb set up reveal solutions in 2005.

Bill 3:54
And in addition to training and coaching has co authored a range of development products with Mark taken such as the growth coaching cards, developing emotional intelligence and successful appraisal products. And they were also collaborated. They also collaborated with Grant Soosalu to produce the mBraining flash learning cards and the mBIT coaching cards. Reb believes that leadership is everyone’s responsibility, regardless of job role or title. It starts with how we are choosing to lead our life.

Bill 4:33
Welcome to the program Reb Veale

Reb 4:37
Hello.

Bill 4:40
Hello, how are you?

Reb 4:41
I’m really really well thanks very much indeed. How are you doing?

Bill 4:45
I’m doing well. We are going through the fourth season in Melbourne today. So we’re up to gale force winds and and who knows what else yeah. And who knows what else so hopefully the weather’s a little bit more stable weather where you’re sitting read? Oh, it’s

Reb 5:02
it’s pretty windy it’s batten down the hatches, we’re can’t decide whether we’re autumn or winter at the moment. And you know what? It’s all good. It’s all part of the cycle.

Bill 5:12
Yeah, fair enough. Well, we’re a bit like that here. And we’re used to taking quite a no, an umbrella shorts and a really sort of thick woolen jacket with us everywhere we go most seasons in Australia.

Reb 5:26
Not so different to here in the UK.

Bill 5:29
Hey Reb is Reb short for something?

Reb 5:33
It is It’s short for Rebecca. It’s not as exotic as some people might think. There were four Rebecca’s in my year at school. And they got there first with the shortened version of the name that people might recognize.

Bill 5:47
Okay, so Reb was it a good way to minimize the confusion? Do people call you Rebecca? Is that something that you only get called when you’re in trouble?

Reb 5:58
Would you know what my mum used to call me, Rebecca, have you ever noticed it’s always with the middle name. So it was Rebecca Jane. So I guess there’s quite a strong anchor around that. And I tend to reserve the name for, you know, friends and family, close friends and family. But for most people, they call me Reb.

Bill 6:16
Yeah, awesome. Well, Reb it is then for me as well, no problem at all. I want you to feel like you’re in trouble. Every time I speak to you. Tell me a little bit about what you do. Pretty cool areas that you’ve worked in listening to you by reading your bio, tell me a little bit about what you do, day to day?

About Reb Veale

Reb 6:36
So day to day, from a psychological perspective, and many of the listeners will probably be familiar with those personality question as you do when you’re either applying for a job or he might be having done them in a magazine To find out more about yourself. Well, in the one that talks about prefers routine versus variety, I’m kind of off the scale of variety. I like lots of different things.

Reb 7:02
So I’m really privileged that the way I go about my business is I work with all kinds of different people in all different sectors. Everything from C suite chief execs all the way to people just starting off in their career. Graduates, first line managers and what have you. And I love the variety, all sorts of different job roles that people do. And everything from coaching, training, going in doing consultancy, or top team coaching. Just absolutely blessed.

Bill 7:37
What was it that got you into this sort of work? The coaching and all the other things we do? Did you end up there?

Reb 7:45
By accident? Oh, yeah, for sure. Well, I by accident, but I’m sure there was a deeper intelligence in my three brains that were sort of my multiple brains that was ultimately leading to it. I started off after university. Cuz shock horror, a degree in politics and social anthropology apparently doesn’t qualify you for anything, pretty much. So at that point, I thought, well, I’ve got to be gainfully employed.

Reb 8:16
And pretty much the only thing I’ve got experience of was working part time in retail, and hospitality. So I fell into retail management, and worked in commercial retail management for a few years. before it became patently obvious to me and my bosses that my talents didn’t lie in in sales figures and profit margins. And one of my more insightful bosses said I want to get into personnel, which is what human resources used to be called. I know back not long ago.

Bill 8:50
I know the feeling of not meeting those sales targets.

Reb 8:53
Yeah, for sure. So I fell into what was then personnel management. And I really enjoyed that because it was more involving people rather than just widgets or profit margins. And then after a few years, I started to become less interested in absolute statistics and wage overspends and productivity percentages.

Reb 9:24
And more interested in so how come this person is really engaged in doing an awesome job and just comes in cheerful every day and, and this person’s really doing it tough. And so I started getting interested in training. And I started getting more and more interested in training to the extent that I thought I could be doing this I come alive when I’m training and working with people to develop them. And I was starting to dread the day job as it were.

Reb 9:57
So I made organization development. People development my day job. And after a couple of jobs, and training in occupational psychology and coating, and discovering this amazingly weird technology called NLP along the way, I thought, I can’t advocate people being choice full in their lives if I’m not prepared to take action and do that myself. So I kind of took my own medicine and never looked back.

Bill 10:30
Well, that’s pretty courageous. Taking your own medicine, I know that some of the worst medicine to take sometimes is your own.

Reb 10:37
Yeah, absolutely. It’s an add, you know, I don’t want to imply that it’s been plain sailing, it’s been more of a roller coaster. And you know, what I’m still holding on and, on balance, absolutely adore everything that my life brings, and, and the choices I’m able to make. It’s genuinely a heck of a privilege.

Bill 11:01
Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that. What it takes to step into that place where you, you know, first look at yourself in the mirror and then say, you know, what, with this some things we’ve got to sort out You and I, what, Tim a little bit about what it takes to step into that place? And did you find that happens happen naturally for you? Or was it really a big step?

Reb 11:23
Yeah, happened really naturally, after quite a lot of the signs and signals in my life that I’d been ignoring really assiduously for, for quite a few years started getting quite obvious. So I was finding work increasingly stressful. I really struggled with stress for quite a few years.

Reb 11:50
Some of my personal life, relationships weren’t too good. And all sorts of you know that, you know, they say, in hindsight, the signs were there. And it actually took, actually a very courageous, we weren’t soulmates as boss and employee, but he was very insightful, and, and really good at what he did. And he took me to one side, and he said, Do you realize you’re suffering from stress.

Reb 12:20
And I guess that was one of those moments, when you start actually doing the reflecting, that helps so much. And if we don’t make time for reflection, I’ve subsequently learned that that’s when some of the signals that we could be listening out for paying attention to and acting upon, can go by the by.

Reb 12:41
So that was a real period of reflection and opportunity to reassess. And I realized that she didn’t want as far as this version of me is aware, we’re only here once. Yeah. So let’s make it the best go that we absolutely can.

Bill 13:00
Yeah, I love that I, I can relate to you know, that person pulling you aside and saying, hey, do you realize this, I had somebody do that with me very early on as well, I think I was probably around, you know, 23, or 24. And when I look back on everything that I’ve done, to get to where I am today, and to have achieved what I’ve achieved, and etc, if one critical thing that happened is that this person who I fell out with later on anyway.

Bill 13:26
Was the driver of the change that occurred that led me down this new trajectory. And when I look back, I feel so blessed and so lucky that somebody found it necessary or found that found that all is, you know, worthwhile enough for them to pull me up and say, Hey, you could probably benefit from doing this, why don’t you look into it?

Bill 13:53
And I really take my hat off to people that do that for others, because sometimes, you know, that’s what we need, we need somebody to really pull us aside. And I would encourage other leaders, other managers, other people who work with people in, you know, in roles of authority to really pay attention and not be afraid to sort of share how they think somebody could evolve. If they think that person is, you know, the right type of person to tell if they’re prepared to listen, you know, to that little conversation.

Reb 14:28
Yeah, you never know what difference you’re going to make to somebody else, or you can make to yourself, your own life, just by showing up. One of the things I really advocate, you know, is get some outside form of whether it’s personal reflection, whether it’s coaching or peer supervision with somebody else or journaling or some mechanism to reflect one of my favorite misquotes.

Reb 14:59
I can’t remember the the actual version but and Carl Jung, Carl Jung, most people will know as the psychologist who was ultimately responsible for what a mother and daughter team made the Myers Briggs type inventory, probably the most common personality questionnaire used in the world. And in human said, unconscious will have a way of parading life lessons for us until we actually learn them.

Reb 15:34
So, you know, pretty much like I said, with the signs are always there, if only I had been either keeping a journal or meditating or having a coach or something like that, then I probably could have saved myself and others around me a little bit of heartache and time, and Jr, what I guess I am a product of the journey that I’ve had thus far. And I’m creating the journey as it is going forward so it’s all good.

Bill 16:04
Yeah, it’s all good. And there’s still learning opportunities, and you still can reflect on them and say, Hey, you know, what, I at least I see now what I didn’t see then. And another great thing.

Reb 16:14
Always, absolutely.

Occupational psychology

Bill 16:16
Tell me a little bit about I’ve never heard of, specifically occupational psychology, tell me what that’s about.

Reb 16:23
So it’s about applying what makes you tick, and what makes you you, the unique you on we’ll talk a little bit about that actually, in a minute. and applying it to how you apply yourself to work how you work with other people, where you want to best use your talents and your preferences.

Reb 16:45
So rather than just understanding what makes you tick, as a person, it’s also, you know, I was potentially never designed to be I could be if I wanted to be, but I was never potentiated towards being a data analyst, for example.

Reb 17:03
And you know, what, there are people for whom that will be their calling, and that will set the heart alight, and, and they’ll do phenomenal things in that role. So it’s really just helping people find out, where are you most you in work?

Bill 17:21
Right? Is it kind of like this scenario of helping people find what their strengths are, and then working them towards those strengths?

Reb 17:29
Beautifully put, thank you for being so much more eloquent than I was.

Bill 17:33
No it just came to me then. And, you know, I like the sound of that. Because often, I found myself especially when I was employed by others, doing tasks that were really not exciting to me. So it didn’t, it made it very difficult for me to want to wake up in the morning and go to work, even though the great organization and potentially I could learn a lot, just the wrong role made it such a terrible sort of way to pass the day.

Reb 17:59
Huh? Yeah, and this isn’t a This isn’t a dress rehearsal. So you know, we get as far as we’re aware, at the moment, one go at this, let’s just make sure that we’re pushing on open doors, and that we’re enjoying it and, and making it an awesome time for us and everybody else we impact.

Bill 18:20
That’s awesome. I love the sound of that. Now, what I also love the sound of is that you, you say that you love to help people find their own unique solutions. So what do you say? What do you mean, we’re not supposed to be telling people that they should be doing? Or you should be meditating? Or you should be you know, whatever.

Reb 18:41
Yeah. And you know, that’s one I constantly remind myself, particularly when I’m coaching, it’s I also I’m really lucky to train people to coach both using mBIT on the mBIT training courses, and also more traditional procedural process based methods of coaching particularly in in corporates and what have you at the moment.

Reb 19:06
And one of the biggest learnings is always the whether you bite your tongue with you sort of stick your hand in front of your mouth, whatever mechanism you need to do. It’s that that Grant Soosalu talks about blinding flash of the obvious I love that, that bfo that hang on a minute, what might work for me, my ideas of how you can solve this actually is completely irrelevant for you. It may not work for you, it certainly won’t be the best thing for you.

Reb 19:40
So the best way I can honor everything you are and are becoming is by me helping any limiting beliefs you may have. Get out of your way, and helping you Marshal your phenomenal, unique resources. to how you determine is your absolute fullest. And as I often say, coaching for me isn’t turning the light switch on for somebody.

Reb 20:10
It’s shining a light, using entrainment and questions and space. And whatever it takes on the light switch so that you can choose to turn it on, when it works for you in a way it works for you. for whatever purpose you want to.

Bill 20:29
Yeah, that’s just amazing that I’ve experienced that. And because I’ve experienced that I know exactly what you’re talking about. I know, a lot of the mBIT coaches and even the NLP coaches will absolutely be able to really understand what you’re saying. And I just remember going through, you know, some counseling in my younger years.

Bill 20:50
And often feeling a little bit let down when I was told I should do something, but I had no desire, no desire whatsoever to do what it was that was suggested that I needed to do to help resolve, you know, the particular challenge that I had at one time.

Reb 21:06
And there’s the key to self leadership, it has to start with desire, it has to start with what sets your heart alight. Otherwise, it’s it’s unlikely to happen.

Bill 21:19
Yeah, yeah. Certainly many times, I found myself going back and feeling a little bit naughty or a little bit bad. Like I hadn’t done my homework and saying to the person I was being coached by or counseled by it and said, No, I didn’t do what I agreed to do. last session, sorry, you know, and here we are at, at square one. And I was starting again. You know, I don’t know why I haven’t done that. But I just haven’t done them.

Reb 21:49
It’s one of those amazing things, isn’t it that I don’t know about you. I know, we’ve talked before when when I came across mBIT and embracing reading the book, and then going on a training myself, and subsequently, I’m continuing to learn more and more richness and nuances. It felt like home, it felt so natural and familiar. And yet so profoundly powerful. That actually, when I did things emergently and generatively. it fitted, it worked it. it flowed.

Bill 22:32
Yeah. And and often was your experience first time round? Did it just work first time round?

Reb 22:39
No, it’s iterative, the same as life. And you know, it’s really interesting, because I notice, more and more I’m focusing on this emergent piece that actually, I know occasionally I use the term. Absolutely. And it’s interesting that I’m noticing that because, of course nothing is absolute in this life. Well, other than the very end of it.

Reb 23:05
And you know, we still don’t know if that’s absolute, we won’t know until we get there. But so in NLP, we talk about Korzybski talked about I the word the letter I, I as in a person me being the ultimate nominalization that it’s not a thing. It’s we are each a process because in many ways, Thank heaven, I am a different me than I was when I was 1617.

Reb 23:36
You know, I was annoyed. I was seriously not cool to my parents and some of the people around me. So I’m glad that I am continuing to become a different media human becoming every day. So that piece around life is iterative. We’re constantly learning and I think that that’s part of the point of being here.

Bill 24:04
Yeah, I love it. You know what I think when we were 16 and being that sort of unpleasant version of ourselves, I think it was the brilliance trying to get out but just not knowing how.

Reb 24:16
Oh, what an exquisite reframe.

Real vs pseudo leadership

Bill 24:19
That’s what I like to believe. Well amazing stuff. Thanks for sharing. I really do appreciate it. I want to ask a couple of questions that are really I know, things that you’re really passionate about, and I want to talk about leadership. And one of the concepts that we talked about, you know, certifications and, and that I first came across through one of the trainings that I did with grant was the concept of real leadership.

Bill 24:57
And I didn’t know there was such a thing as real leadership. was the first time I ever sort of contemplated this possibility and pseudo leadership? Can you share with us now I know you work with leaders all the time, and you would have experienced leaders who really seem to be able to mobilize the troops to get the job done.

Bill 25:20
But to also get the job done in a way that’s really sort of caring for the staff rather than about, you know, squeezing the last in a bit of productivity out of them, you know, that’s all about the greater good for the organization, the people that deliver the outcomes, as well as the people who are receiving the services that the organization is, is sort of providing services for.

Bill 25:47
And then you would have already imagined, had leaders who really struggled, that were in roles of leadership, and really struggled with the non compliance, so to speak of staff and the knot and the inability to achieve outcomes. And the stress that, you know, is created as a result of that.

Bill 26:09
And then the the loss of staff and this constant sort of struggle to get outcomes and achieve outcomes. I’m wondering, what, what is the difference between those two types of leaders? And why does one succeed and one not succeed? Now? Very big question. Let’s start at the beginning, what is a real leader? And how are they different from somebody who does shooter leadership?

Reb 26:42
Yeah, um, the first thing I’ll say is, I’m so grateful, because whilst I had an intuitive feeling for what the difference between these two categorizations is, before coming to mBIT, one of the benefits for me of em bit and understanding about embracing increasingly, is the huge amount of research that Marvin ochre and grant Sousou did in the field.

Reb 27:13
And that gave rise not only to mBIT coach certification, but the amazing program that’s running all around the world. Now, leadership decision making, if you go to www.mbraining.com, you can find all of the courses in wherever you are in the globe, or a course that’s running the you the research that they did, and the model they created. absolutely nailed it for me, because my what comes down to my definition of a difference between the two is heart, where is the heart in your leadership.

Reb 27:50
And there’s a lot more detail in the leadership decision making program through mBIT trainers, but real leadership places heart, front and center. So if you start from a heart space, in other words, you start understanding how you relate to other people, what your values are being really clear on what’s important to you and to your organization, and to those around you.

Reb 28:17
And certainly in corporate world emotional intelligence over the past, I guess 2025 years or so has really started becoming very popular, very commonplace, and the work of Daniel Goleman, and emotional intelligence and, and others, besides salvia Mayer has really started explaining that difference, and it helps leaders I think, focus on coming from a heart space.

Reb 28:48
Whereas in pseudo leadership you talked about I think, intuitively many people would recognize when they’ve experienced a boss, or a so called leader who just really, at the time, through not necessarily any fault of their own. And wasn’t getting it right didn’t come from a heart space at all. Either it came last it was an afterthought.

Reb 29:12
Oh, and by the way I value you, which almost sounds like a you know, an apology, oh, dear, I’ve got to make them feel good. And afterthought, or the heart space thing wasn’t there at all. And they really were just managing not leading. So for me, it’s all about heart.

Reb 29:34
And I’m not going to give because I don’t want to give any examples particularly of individuals who have sudo because I think a we can all recognize people from our past, including some of ourselves. Certainly, I can think of times in my life when when I was demonstrating senior leadership, but I do want to just give an example or two of real leadership, real leaders and one was most recently in the new If he woke up, as you know, I’m a bit passionate about my rugby.

Reb 30:06
And there were numerous examples of great, what I would call real authentic, connected with their heart leaders throughout. The one that really shines out though was Sonny Bill Williams, from the New Zealand All Blacks. And after being the awesome technicians and warriors and hearts that they are.

Reb 30:33
After they won the Rugby World Cup, deservedly so I don’t know if you saw on the news, when they got their winners medals around the neck and they were parading around the pitch, a young lad, probably 1112, something like that ran onto the pitch excitedly to see his hero, Sonny Bill Williams and just to shake his hand and give him a hug.

Reb 30:56
Out of sheer passion and a security guard who was just doing his best and what you’ve been told to do, and, you know, probably reacting, not really having a chance to reflect he stopped him. Effectively rugby tackled him to the ground. And in that instance, Sonny Bill Williams actually operated out of a heart, brain space, a heart intelligence, out of a value of valuing the child’s enthusiasm, wanting to connect with him and share that emotion and act in a really courageous way.

Reb 31:36
And what he thought was the right thing to do in that space, he picked the charter, and he gave him a hug. And he took him back and he met his parents and shook my hand and, and then he took off his medal, his winners, Medal of the World Cup only comes around every four years,

Bill 31:53
If you get there.

Reb 31:54
If you get there, and he hung around the boy’s neck for the boy to keep. And for me, that is one example of real heart centered leadership. Because of course, that didn’t only create something in that boy or his family, or for that matter, the rest of the stadium, but ripples went around the world of Wow, standing up and doing that thing to connect. Just awesome.

Bill 32:24
Yeah, that is a beautiful example. And I do remember, you know, the coverage that that got, and most people thought, you know, that was pretty unbelievable. Why would somebody give away their, you know, the winner’s medallion of a Gold Cup you know? And that kind of brings me to a place where I think about what some people potentially listening to this program might think, in a corporate world, bringing, coming from a heart space.

Bill 32:59
Some people might be thinking, but that might make me soft, that might make me a target. What do you say to people that sort of feel that perhaps it’s not appropriate to come from a heart space first, when considering you know how you’re going to go about leading your team?

Reb 33:18
I so love that question. Thank you so much, is it’s like you’ve been taping some of my coaching sessions or something.

Bill 33:27
I haven’t, I promise.

Reb 33:28
No, I know, I’m joking. But certainly, that’s a really common question that you know, if, for start, there might be some people who think that emotional intelligence and coming from a heart-centered spaces, namby-pamby or a bit soft, and aren’t people going to, perhaps take advantage or, you know, not focus on the important things, because let’s face it in corporate world, in businesses.

Reb 33:57
Generating revenue for the business and generating profit for shareholders is the way I’m not going to go into philosophical debate whether that’s right or wrong, but that is the way organizations are set up. And and that is, you know, their job. And so that is important. It’s not let’s just go into work and have a big loving, although, hey, I’d be in favor.

Bill 34:20
That was the 60s, wasn’t it?

Either head or heart

Reb 34:25
So yeah, that is a real concern. It’s a genuine concern of some managers. And some also worry about many come from and certainly in though, I use the term advisedly Western industrialized world, they we come from quite a dualist model. So the way our culture and the myths upon which were brought up, are based is it’s either head or heart or or head or heart and gut. The two can’t actually be aligned.

Reb 35:01
And of course, this leads to so much disharmony. And this is often why people get stressed because of course, as we know, from em bit, their heart and gut, maybe telling them something different from their head, or, you know, vice versa. So, one of the examples I share with them, actually is, of course, I share some of the thinking around and the evidence that was generously provided from the research from Madeline grant, and a guy called Dan Price.

Reb 35:33
And this this example also is only about 18 months, two years old, a guy called Dan price, who is the chief executive of an American company and Idaho company called gravity payments. And really, really successful company providing payment solutions for small medium sized and large enterprises, across the states mostly, and he talks about, he was out walking one day with one of his friends.

Reb 35:59
And she was saying how stressed out she was because her rent had been put up, and she wasn’t quite sure on the wage that she was on, even though that was a reasonable wage, if she was going to be able to make it. And this set him really reflecting on something that his dad had brought him up to believe his dad used to say to him, how much is your integrity worth so and that resonated so deeply with him.

Reb 36:26
And it was it became a core value, largely, of course, informed by the core value of his parents, that your integrity is worth any sum of money. And it’s ultimately what drives and of course, integrity is a value of core value, which is likely to be a combination, particularly of heart intelligence, also some core identity in there some gut brain as well. And he was working in this business where he was CEO of this business called gravity payments.

Reb 37:00
And he realized, hang on a minute after this conversation with my friend, I’ve got a lot of people in my company 120 employees in Idaho who, yeah, they’re on the state minimum wage, but actually, they’re struggling to make ends meet. So what he decided on one day, and he acted upon it, so there’s got brain there as well.

Reb 37:20
He thought things through, and he thought, okay, of the 120 people I employ 70 of them are earning less than $70,000. So what I’m going to do is I’m going to cut my own salary by $900,000, to $70,000. And I’m going to give the remainder of that salary to make everybody else up to a minimum of $70,000. That meant that of those 7030 of them doubled their salaries on one day.

Reb 38:01
And that’s an example of real leadership, because his heart informed him to show integrity to live up to his values, to truly inspire loyalty for the people who worked with him. While this guy’s really prepared to put himself on the line. Yeah. And he is one of us, they identified with him. So that’s a modern example. And I suppose the nice end of the parable, the head convinced is, of course, as you would expect, his business has continued to go.

Reb 38:38
And he’s continuing to go from strength to strength, because people will give their discretionary effort when they feel they’re working for somebody who hasn’t their interests and listen to the language I’m about to use their interests at heart. He didn’t have a spreadsheet for that. I’m sure he got his his team of data analysts on it who provided the the rationale and did the profit projections and all the rest of it, which is necessary in that model of business. But it’s started at the heart.

Bill 39:12
Yeah, that is amazing. I remember that story as well, Reb and it was really interesting to follow the news stories about how how is it possible that this person has done that like it was almost completely unbelievable. And, and then following, and listening to sort of that whole story?

Bill 39:33
And hearing you explain it, again, really brought home that it wasn’t a rational head based decision, there was no way that most heads would agree with that sort of situation, especially when you’re coming from a, you know, a leadership situation where your job is to increase productivity at the expense of other people most of the times.

Reb 39:54
Yeah. And it’s really interesting actually just picking up on what you were saying about when the story came out. Did you notice in the press, there was quite a backlash from the establishment. So from what we would potentially think of as pseudo leaders, or people demonstrating pseudo leadership who were coming largely out of gut brain first and possibly only, so that they were coming out of loss of face potential loss of face for themselves.

Reb 40:30
And, you know, saying that this is absolutely ridiculous. This can’t possibly work and you know, don’t rock the boat. And they were really seeking to decry him and put his identity down in order to reestablish because, of course, they were fearful that this is such a major change. The implications for this are absolutely huge in terms of the status quo, and how we go about organizing ourselves in the world of leadership, that actually, it doesn’t have to be about power, or control or fear.

Bill 41:13
I imagine some of them, I suspect that some of them will also be thinking, Oh, my God, what happens if our board decides to do the same to us?

Reb 41:23
Yeah, absolutely.

Bill 41:24
Yeah. risk averse, and particularly their own backsides making sure that they can keep their own lifestyles sort of, you know, in check would be what would be the first thing on their minds. And this guy is all about, you know, how do we make it possible for people to work for our company survive by working for our company.

Bill 41:46
Which means they come back to work tomorrow, knowing that they’ve achieved all their outcomes for their family. And then they’re about to give you more of themselves than they would ever give turning up to do the bare minimum to get the bare minimum wage.

Reb 42:03
Because they want to?

Bill 42:04
Yeah, yeah. So so I think that’s an amazing example of leadership. And, you know, an example that we really need in this day and age, I think, and it’s awesome to see how what happens then is from somebody making such a big statement that he will sort of be elevated to a position of leader by the people that work with him or for him.

Bill 42:32
Or, you know, as a result of, you know, he’s role work under him for lack of a better term, rather than him elevating himself and thinking that he’s a leader. It’s the people that have made him a leader.

Traditional hierarchical pyramid

Reb 42:45
Yeah, absolutely. It brings to mind management theorist, a management writer called Robert Greenleaf who talks about servant leadership. And again in his way, Robert Greenleaf turned the traditional hierarchical pyramid. I’m not sure whether it translates Australia.

Reb 43:08
Did you ever see Reginald Perrin? The Fall and Rise Reginald Perrin out there? It’s some years ago, you’re probably too young to remember. Of course, I’ve seen it on YouTube. I’m not really old enough. There was a guy called The Fall and Rise Reginald Perrin was the series.

Reb 43:30
And Reggie Perrin was really quite surreal, his character, and he used to have these little episodes where he’d have fantasies in work. And he used to go into his boss’s office and his boss was a pompous. Well, I was just meant to use the word ass.

Bill 43:51
We can’t say ass in this podcast.

Reb 43:53
Right? Okay, pompous idiot. He used to say, or do you know what Reggie? I didn’t get where I am today. And that’s the old fashioned mold of I have all the power. I have the information. I’m at the top of the pyramid. And what Robert Greenleaf did was he turned it on its head and said, as a leader, my job is to serve you to do whatever it takes in order to make it easy for you to enjoy doing your job.

Reb 44:29
And do it well. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, it’s actually much more the traditional Eastern view. So it chimes with the work that grant and Marvin identified in terms of how a guy from the Japanese leadership model.

Bill 44:50
Yeah, that’s fascinating. This is a conversation that I’ve been have for you for a very extended period of time. But being that this is a podcast. Now we can’t do that, we’ve gotten to that point where we need to start wrapping up.

Bill 45:05
So just as we do and before we wrap up, I just want to touch on some of the cards that we mentioned in the opening, which were the grow coaching cards and the developing emotional intelligence and successful appraisal cards. So tell me what they are, and how is it that you and Mark sort of developed them? And, you know, how did you sort of discover the need for products?

Reb 45:39
Well, the girl coaching cards first, uh, can you notice noticing a theme in my business planning here came about by accident. So we were training managers in coaching as a management style. And what we found is these new and eager managers who really wanted to learn to be communicate flexibly and to manage their people in different ways.

Reb 46:10
They were so concerned when we were teaching them in the grow model by developed by Sir john Whitmore that they got really hung up on Oh, I can’t remember a question from the art section, how to ask about reality, and they were getting a little bit of performance anxiety.

Reb 46:33
So we developed the group coaching cards really just as a tool, just as a comfort blanket, so that they would have something in the coat in the training sessions when they were working in threes and learning how to coach that they had in their hand questions from that section that they were practicing at the time, so that they didn’t get worried about that.

Reb 46:56
And they could focus on the really important bits of coaching, which, of course, are about building rapport and deep active listening to the fascinating person that they were coaching, and picking up on signs and all those magic bits, not just the questions. And of course, the positive unintended byproduct of this was, the more they use the cards to use the questions.

Reb 47:22
The more they ended up learning the questions so that when they were in a real coaching situation, with their team, or their individual, their staff, the questions just came naturally. So we started then selling them for other trainers, who were coaching managers, training managers to coach and to use it in their training sessions.

Reb 47:45
And then individual people who wanted to learn coaching started buying them. And those we published in 2010. And they are currently in 36 countries they’ve been sold to, well, yeah, it’s just gobsmacked isn’t the word.

Reb 48:04
The world is it turns out is a surprisingly small places. So it’s really local. And then out of that we had some of our coaches actually started having particular needs and flagging things up that they would find valuable. So we developed the developing emotional intelligence cards, which are, they pretty much do what they say on the tin.

Reb 48:34
So we find that either individual leaders, particularly after a coaching relationship has come to a natural conclusion, we often gift them to our our executive coaches, so that they can perhaps just focus on one section a day or a week or a month. And sometimes they use them with their teams to develop the emotional intelligence of the team.

Reb 49:01
And sometimes coaches use them with their coaches to focus on particular aspects, whether it’s self-awareness, awareness of others around them and their emotions and feelings. Developing self-management, which incorporates some of the NLP and then also relationship management.

Reb 49:22
And then, more recently, only in the last year, the successful appraising or appraisal, successful appraisal cards came about because we were aware some organizations, some managers struggled with appraisal and thought for a start, it was a meeting once a year, if you’re lucky of an hour, and what we were trying to get across is that successful appraisal is an everyday activity.

Reb 49:50
It’s a relationship. It’s an ongoing process. It’s not a thing. So once again, the theme of denormalizing the act It’s every conversation you have with your staff, or with your boss, or with your team is about optimizing their performance. So the successful appraisal cards have various different sections.

Reb 50:15
To enable line managers and leaders to get the best out of their people one conversation at a time, and also to structure things that are really helpful and effective in working relationships, like objective setting, like praising, like, developing people’s aspirations. So there are aspects of emotional intelligence in there as well as coaching.

mBIT coaching and flash cards

Bill 50:41
Yeah. Well, that sounds pretty amazing. And then that later on, led to the coaching, the mBIT coaching cards and the mBIT flashcards. Those were developed in conjunction with Grant.

Reb 50:58
Yeah, what a blast. Absolutely. After having done mBIT coach cert, we approached Grant and said, Wow, this would make an amazing couple of amazing products. And he turned around typical, generous, hardworking, innovative, creative self and said, awesome, I’d already been thinking that will you work with me and and we can create something really special or help people come to mBraining and mBIT.

Reb 51:34
And, you know, be even more of a resource. So we collaborated with him. And he was incredibly generous with his time and his wisdom and his energy. And yes, so the cards were born earlier this year. And again, they’re already out in a number of countries, as well as the mBIT community or M family as I like to call it continues to grow.

Bill 51:58
I love it. I love it when you call it the M family.

Reb 52:02
Yeah, so the mBraining flash learning cards are particularly to help deepen and enrich your own understanding and feel for the material. And that’s why there’s little numbers in the corner there the page numbers that relate to the mBraining using your multiple brains to do cool stuff, book by Marvin Oka and Grant Soosalu.

Bill 52:28
Is that what those numbers are?

Reb 52:30
Yeah, exactly. And people use them. So in our own trainings, people use them in the social learning concept mapping in the morning, first thing in the morning, I’ve seen them using them in breaks to test each other. And they use them in the evenings to deepen their own knowledge and understanding and recall of the material so that it comes even more naturally and fluently.

Reb 52:56
And then the mBIT coaching cards were because we had people who were saying, Okay, how can I think of ways of facilitating someone using the mBIT roadmap? How can I develop my fluency with questions to enable people to, first of all communicate with and then of course, achieve congruence with all of my multiple intelligences, my multiple brains? So and there’s also a wisdom section of questions leading towards highest expressions and wisdoming.

Bill 53:35
Yeah, fantastic. So your suggestion for how to use the flashcards is to provide them with the materials during a coach certification from day one?

Reb 53:46
Certainly, that’s what we’ve done. Various colleagues who are trainers have used them in a number of different ways. And one of the things we love about producing these resources is that we only have a limited number of ideas of how to use them. And then both our participants and our colleagues, our customers come back to us and say, Oh, we use them like this, so they get really creative.

Reb 54:11
So some of my fellow trainers have also used them to facilitate social learning and concept mapping in the mornings. So they’ve put a couple of packs out for people to leave through as the inspiration takes them. We give them out at coach certifications as an additional resource with the book so that people have them to go away with in the evenings and subsequently after the program to really keep refreshing the learning to keep it being as I refer to earlier on iterative.

Bill 54:42
Yeah. Well, that sounds awesome. I, I have had a number of those cards come through my hands as somebody who can make them available to people in Australia and they’ve been snapped up and people really do love the idea of them and I can see what Now, especially now that I know that on the flashcards, the numbers refer to the pages in the book.

Reb 55:06
Apologies for not making that clear.

Bill 55:08
I’m gonna take it to the next level for me. So they’ve written thanks for that Reb. So I’m curious if somebody in the UK wanted to get in touch with yourself and the embracing products and the other products, how would they go about doing that.

Reb 55:30
So if they want to contact me either about the products or collaborating or leadership or anything else, then Firstly, I kind of hang around on Facebook, just look for reveal. And or go to the mBraining, mBIT community, and you’ll find me on there. I’m also occasionally to be seen on LinkedIn. So doing a bit of a social media thing, or you can either email me rep at revealsolutions.co.uk, or all the W’s reveal solutions.co.uk website.

Reb 56:10
And on the website, if you click on shop, that’s where you can find the products and also our courses. And, yeah, one of the things I’m absolutely loving about this particular community, the mBIT community is it is so collaborative, so generous, so hard lead, I think one of the things that we all recognize is that actually, we can achieve so much more together for sounds really big and worthy, and Grant, and all the rest of it.

Reb 56:46
But I genuinely mean it, for humanity and for the world. And for our we take our leadership of our generation, really, really to heart, and really seriously. And that is so evident in the interactions between people, and it’s something I absolutely treasure. It’s a very precious thing to be part of. And I’m very grateful.

Bill 57:13
Yeah, I get that too. I also really sort of, I feel really privileged to be involved in a community as well, to have the understanding and the knowledge that I do now about how, what makes people tick and how we can make them aware of where they’re going wrong.

Bill 57:28
Because really, that awareness is what sort of, again, after you know many years sort of re directed my life down the path that I really needed it to go so I totally get where you’re coming from I feel the same way.

Bill 57:46
And you know what, and I know that I know we’re doing some work, some trainers doing some work in some countries where real leadership is really required these days. And I hear a birdie tells me that you’re heading off at some point to do a coach certification in where my ancestors are from Greece.

Reb 58:09
Indeed, Polly Araya. Indeed, yes, I’m really chuffed to bits that an awesome NLP trainer and therapist and coach in Greece called Nick Fragias is hosting me to do Greece’s first mBIT coach certification, the first week of February. So if anybody knows any friends in Greece, or in fact anywhere around that area, or anyone wants to travel to Greece, for that matter, hey, when wide limited, then the more the merrier, it will truly be an awesome training. And I’m so looking forward to it.

Bill 58:54
Yeah, I think you know what, that when we know about all the stuff that’s going on around the world, and we know some of the countries that are doing a tough, then there’s no better time to take real cutting edge courses into those communities and sort of hopefully start sort of creating a ripple effect of real leadership instead of that country has been plagued by shooter leadership for the best part of,

Reb 59:19
you know, 50 years. Absolutely. And I have to say, a big shout out to Nick Fragias for having the the heart absolutely feeling that this was the most important next step in the world. And the courage to introduce this and figuring out what was needed. So big shout out to him for showing the exemplary inspirational leadership to bring em bits to Greece.

Bill 59:50
Reb if you need a quick Greek 101 so you can brush it up and get. I’m available all right?So anything you need let me know.

Reb 1:00:00
Thank you so much.

Bill 1:00:02
Your welcome read that brings us to the end of our amazing chat. I really do appreciate you making your time available for me.

What people will never forget

Reb 1:00:12
If possible, I just like to give you a quote from one of my absolute favorite writers and sadly lost last year called Maya Angelou. And for me, it really sums up the difference between real leadership and pseudo leadership. And real leadership for me is what she said she learned, people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did. But people will never forget how you made them feel.

Bill 1:00:37
Yeah, wow. And on that note, I think that’s a beautiful night to end this episode.

Reb 1:00:43
Thank you so much, really appreciate the opportunity, Bill.

Bill 1:00:47
And you thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. And I wish you all the success in everything that you’re doing in the UK and in the other countries around the world. Thank you for being part of The mBraining Show.

Reb 1:01:01
And you too, thanks so much for everything you do.

Bill 1:01:05
Another great episode of inbreeding show I really enjoyed sitting there and having my one hour chat with reveal from reveal solutions. She really is an amazing lady. And if you’re in the UK, and you’d be interested in doing an mBIT coach certification, or finding out more about the leadership and decision making course, you can get in touch with Reb Veale via the website www.revealsolutions.co.uk.

Bill 1:01:38
And also just a reminder that this podcast is sponsored by reveal solutions, and they are the leading provider of coaching cards to personal development and leadership development in organizations. They were delighted to have collaborated with Grant Soosalu to develop the mBraining flash learning cards and also the mBIT coaching cards.

Bill 1:02:00
Which are available from both their UK site reveal solutions.co.uk and from my own site, embracing australia.com that are you the full range of reveal solution solutions, coaching cards, including the grow coaching model, developing emotional intelligence and successful appraisal coaching cards will be available from the new Australian site.

Bill 1:02:31
Which I am pleased to announce that I have collaborated with Mark and Reb to develop and put together and that new site is ww w w dot reveal solutions.com that are you. And this is going to go live sometime in January 2016. Making these quality educational tools already sold in over 36 countries more accessible to the Australian, New Zealand and Asia Pacific regions.

Bill 1:03:05
To find out more and to register your interest in our products, drop us an email to info at reveal solutions.co.uk headed products Australia. And we will keep you up to date with the launch of the site and product availability. Well, once again, thank you so much for listening to the mBraining show.

Bill 1:03:28
I really do appreciate you tuning in wherever you may be around the world. We are currently live in 16 countries. And I want to thank you all for tuning in downloading the episodes sending me your feedback, I really do appreciate it. Also, I want to welcome Canada to the mix who have had some downloads in the last couple of weeks. So welcome, Canada.

Bill 1:03:52
I look forward to hearing from somebody in Canada at any time about the embracing show, please do get in touch with us and tell us what you think. So if you are in a country that does not currently have an mBIT coach certification course being run, and you would want to have one delivered where you live, then get in touch with me. I be happy to talk to you about how we might make that happen.

Bill 1:04:19
Ro do that go to themBrainingshow.com and fill out the contact form and I will be in touch. Also if you need a speaker for your next event. And do drop me a line visit BillGasiamis.com. I’d love to talk to you about your next event. Until the next episode of The mBraining Show. Thank you for listening and for tuning in to mBIT radio by now.

Intro 1:04:59
The presenter And special guests of this podcast intend to provide accurate and helpful information to their listeners. These podcasts can not take into consideration individual circumstances and are not intended to be a substitute for independent medical advice from a qualified health professional.

Intro 1:05:17
You should always seek the advice from a qualified health professional before acting on any of the information provided by any of the transit lounge podcasts. This has been a production of thembrainingshow.com check us out on Facebook and start a conversation at facebook.com/mbrainingshow. Subscribe to each show on iTunes and check us out on Twitter. The mBraining Show would like to acknowledge and thank mBIT international for their support with the show wants to know more about mBraining. Visit www.mbraining.com.

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