547: Kaity Griffin – Google Ads For Photographers: From Clicks to Clients

PhotoBizX The Ultimate Wedding and Portrait Photography Business Podcast

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Kaity Griffin of www.kaitygriffin.com is a Google AdWords expert… with a difference. She has a knack for cutting through a lot of the technical jargon associated with Google Ads and is super focussed on getting her clients measurable results.

Look at her reviews and testimonials, and you'll find examples like this one from Stacey…

It's so refreshing to see someone in this space who cares about seeing people succeed (actually getting leads and making sales) rather than just a pricey ad manager who doesn’t care about delivering a result.

On her website, she says what she does is for small business owners who want to cut through the tricky tech and create seriously profitable Google Ads.

She has a podcast on the topic, multiple courses, from basic to advanced and offers consulting services and Google Ad audits too. To date, over 1500 students have benefited from her training.

In this interview, Kaity breaks down Google ads for photographers and shares how you can use this lead-generation machine effectively.

Here's some more of what we covered in the interview:

• Starting with Google Adwords: Kaity's journey of starting her business using Google Adwords.
• Managing Google Ads: Whether hiring someone or enrolling in a course to manage Google Ads is better.
• Outsourcing Considerations: Factors to consider when deciding to outsource aspects of your business.
• Measuring Ad Results: Determining when an ad has produced results and the importance of conversion tracking.
• Landing Page Strategy: Advocacy for sending potential clients to a dedicated landing page rather than a homepage.
• Specific Google Ad Campaigns: Exploration of the possibility of running highly specific Google Ad campaigns.
• Text-Based Ads: Noting that Google Ads are generally text-based.
• Facebook vs. Google Ads: Comparison of adoption rates for landing page campaigns on Facebook versus Google.
• Distinguishing Google and Facebook Ads: Understanding the differences between Google and Facebook ads.
• Evolution of Google Searches: Observations on how Google searches have evolved.
• Ad Placement and Sequencing: Insight into how Google determines ad placements and sequencing in search results
• Metrics Importance: Emphasizing the importance of knowing metrics before running Google Ads.
• Google Ads Keyword Planner: Considerations and insights on using the Google Ads Keyword Planner.
• Negative Keywords: Explanation of what negative keywords are and how to use them.
• Ideal Client Targeting: Strategies to ensure your ideal client finds you through Google Ads.
• Google Ad Charges: Explanation of how Google Ad charges work.
• Keyword Research for Photography Business: Kaity's approach to finding the best keywords for a photography business.
• Testimonials for Keywords: Using client testimonials to identify keywords that resonate with your business.
• Speed of Results with Google Ads: Managing expectations regarding the time it takes to see results when investing in Google Ads.
• Lead Magnets and Facebook Ads: Clarification that lead magnets are more suited for Facebook Ads.

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If you're spending $3000 to $5000 a month on ads, that's a lot of leads. Focus on converting them rather than focusing on scaling the ad spend. – Kaity Griffin

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What is your big takeaway?

Following this interview, I’d love to know if you're taking anything from what Kaity shared. Is there something you heard that excited or motivated you to the point where you thought, yeah, I'm going to do that! If so, leave your thoughts in the comments below; let me know your takeaways and what you plan to implement in your business due to what you heard in today's episode.

People are actually searching for you as a solution when they're on Google rather than being sort of in the awareness, interruption style marketing that Facebook will serve. – Kaity Griffin

If you have any questions I missed, a specific question you’d like to ask Kaity or if you want to say thanks for coming on the show, feel free to add them in the comments area below.

New Masterclass THIS Week

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iTunes Reviews and Shout-outs

I check for any new iTunes or Google reviews each week, and it's always a buzz to receive these… for several reasons.

Firstly, it's confirmation that I'm on the right track with the interviews and that they are helping you improve your photography business. That's awesome!

It pays more to get the click but it pays less to get the lead. Focus on what the output is not what the input is. – Kaity Griffin

Secondly, iTunes and Google are the most significant podcast search engines, and your reviews and ratings help other photographers find PhotoBizX. More listeners mean more interviews and, ultimately, a better show.

If you have left a review in the past, thank you! If you haven't and you'd like to, head to https://photobizx.com/itunes or https://photobizx.com/google, and you can leave some honest feedback and a rating which will help both me and the show, and I'll be sure to thank you on the show and add a link to your website or blog if you let me know the URL of your website and your name.

When you are in Keyword Planner, focus on relevance over number of people searching because the higher the number of people searching, the broader your reach will be. – Kaity Griffin

Alternatively, if you've left a review for PhotoBizX and are looking for more backlinks to help your SEO, leave a review for the new Photography Xperiment Podcast. Email me your keywords or phrases and where you'd like me to link them.

Another great way to get a backlink to your site is to send a video testimonial. It doesn't need to be fancy, and your phone will be perfect. Click record and tell me how PhotoBizX has impacted you and your photography business.​

Links to people, places and things mentioned in this episode:

Kaity Griffin Website

Kaity Griffin on Facebook

Kaity Griffin on Instagram

FREE Keyword Course for Photographers — https://photobizx.com/keywords

A keyword needs at least 10 impressions per month to be able to show. – Kaity Griffin

Thank you!

Thanks again for listening, and thanks to Kaity for coming on and sharing her thoughts, ideas and approach to building a successful lead generation strategy with Google Ads for photographers.

Anyone indicating that they are price shopping, if you're on the premium side, they're not your people. – Kaity Griffin

That’s it for me this week; I hope everything is going well for you in life and business!

Thanks, and speak soon
Andrew

Episode Transcript

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Andrew Hellmich

Today's guest is a Google AdWords expert with a difference. And from what I understand she has a knack for cutting through a lot of the technical jargon associated with Google ads, and really is focused on getting her clients measurable results. If you take a look at the reviews and testimonials, when you go searching for her name online, you'll find examples like this one from Stacey, where she says it's so refreshing to see someone in his space, who cares about seeing people succeed, actually getting leads and making sales, rather than just a pricey ad manager who doesn't care about delivering a result. And on her website, she says, what she does is for small business owners who want to cut through the tricky tech and create seriously profitable Google ads. She also has a podcast on the topic, multiple courses from basic to advanced and offers consulting services, and Google Ad audits as well. To date over 1500 students have benefited from her training. I'm talking about Katie Griffin and I am rapt to have her with us now. Katie, welcome.

Kaity Griffin

Thank you, I have not read that testimonial or review out loud from Stacey. I should actually, you know, go back on a bad day and look at them because I do have some good, some good ones that gave me a little bit messed up that one.

Andrew Hellmich

You do. And is it the vibe you get when people will discover you that, you know, 'Oh my God, finally someone who actually cares about getting results?'

Kaity Griffin

Yeah, I think there's a couple of points of difference that work in my favor in that the marketing space can often be dominated by men. And that for females can be quite intimidating a lot of the time. So most of my students are actually women. We have men as well. But, you know, they actually want to upskill rather than just be talked to in a really confusing way. And also, you know, I'm pretty straightforward and down to earth. I don't really put a lot of mayo on things. So I think when you just talk in everyday language, it is refreshing rather than trying to overcomplicate things. I mean, it's always inevitable that there'll be acronyms and jargon in any industry, but trying to just bring things back into how it relates in everyday kind of language rather than fancy marketing speak.

Andrew Hellmich

It feels like your business is like, like a mechanic's, you know, where your stereotypical woman doesn't want to go and see the mechanic because they feel like they're gonna get ripped off.

Kaity Griffin

Yeah, that's actually a really good analogy, I should use that I'm gonna swap that. But it actually is better. And I'm also the mechanic that's like, the old school mechanic that doesn't have a fancy place and kind of in the back alleyway, you know, I'm very much like nothing is that it's about my business. I don't really care about aesthetics or social media, I don't really care what things look like, it's about how it performs like the numbers wise. So I'm probably Yeah, a lot like that old school mechanic that gets results, but isn't overly, you know, fancy, I feel like the things that make your business look pretty aren't necessarily the things that affect the bottom line of your business. I mean, photography, and all that sort stuff, obviously. But when it comes to like, perpetuating you know, this really making things really pretty all the time, I don't think I think that often gets in the way.

Andrew Hellmich

Yeah, I like that. I like that. How did you get into Google AdWords to start with?

Kaity Griffin

Yeah, so I was an E commerce business owner, trying to figure out how to grow that store. This was 10 years ago now. And was listening to podcasts on SEO and Facebook ads was dabbling in sort of all that stuff. And until I listened to a podcast on Google ads, I was like, I think, like, I think I can do this. And I tried to fumble my way through some YouTube videos and set things up. And even though I didn't really know what I was doing, I was able to get some results. And I really liked that visibility between I can spend this amount of money and get this amount back in, I can see the orders coming through. I can tie back results where I'm very impatient. So SEO was like, oh, yeah, I've done some stuff, some optimization, but I can't say for sure that it's like this tangible benefit. So I really liked that clear link between money spent and money received. So then I realized that it sort of suited all my skills. I really loved numbers and data and all that sort of geeky stuff. So I decided to sell the E commerce business and go agency side in the Google ad space. Where is it one of Melbourne's most, it has one of the best reputations worldwide really of being a Google Ads agency. It was founded by a guy called Mike Rhodes, who literally wrote the book, The Ultimate Guide to Google ads, joined his team and just had the best experience working there. And then was there for about three years before I had my second baby. And I was like, I don't think I can commit to like that full time in the city kind of job anymore. I need to come take a back step. So wanted to have my own business where I have a bit more flexibility. So had been running this business, which is how split between the done for you client work and half split between the teaching side with courses started about four and a half years ago, and I'm still part time I'm like, I only work three to four days a week. But I'm able to, you know, get the best of both worlds, do the teaching and also do the client management?

Andrew Hellmich

Nice. And it's not just you in the business either, is it? Because I've been speaking to Hannah to set this interview up?

Kaity Griffin

Yeah. So I've got a team now and amazing team. Actually, Hannah and Lily were two of my students. So Lily's been with me for about four or five months now. They're both Kiwis, based in New Zealand. And they were both students of mine going through my big course, which is like a 12. Week, Google Ads course to upskill. They were both freelancers are going through it to run ads for clients. And then I advertised positions, and Hannah joined me over two years ago, Lily, nearly six months ago. So they bring a lot of viewpoint of a student. So we really see ourselves as I think often when you're doing a course or even hiring someone to be a client manager. Having that experience of actually being on the other side is really helpful. So me being an E commerce business owner gives me a lot of insight to be have to know how much the client cares about the money and cares about what's going on. And Lily and Hannah can know what it's like to be a student on day one, not knowing anything about Google ads, and how to piece all those puzzle pieces together those steps together. So and then we've got a couple of admin support teams. So it's about we're a team of 5 now, which is, yeah, awesome.

Andrew Hellmich

Fantastic. So you mentioned there, like you have clients where you manage the ads and the ad accounts, and you also have courses, when a photographer is thinking about going down the road of utilizing Google ads, which is the right avenue to go to, or is there a split when you think, Okay, this is the better road for me?

Kaity Griffin

Yeah, it's a great question, particularly with photographers, you guys aren't going to have a huge ad spend, because there's only one or if it's a, you know, one person photographer, you can't go nationwide and have that goal isn't volume, it's really steady leads, lead flow writes lead flow, not orders. So it's a different mindset than it is or a different strategy than it is with E commerce, e commerce you're looking volume. And so you might get up to spending, you know, I've got a client that over this Christmas period, they might spend $200,000, in a 30 day period, but talking about a lot of scale. So absorbing our feed into that, which might be $2,000 is a drop in the ocean. But when you're a photographer, you're probably not going to go past like the $500 mark a month adspend. So absorbing that $2,000, it doesn't make the most sense. So my kind of tipping point is, when you reach that three to $5,000 of ad spend, and you're looking to scale up, then it's time to consider outsourcing. However, I don't think photographers will ever get to that point. Because if you're spending 3000 to $5,000 a month on ads, that's a lot of leads, focus on converting them rather than focus on scaling that ad spend. So there's slight differences between that in that ecommerce you're looking at like an average order value. It depends on what type of photographer you are, you might be a newborn photographer, or a maternity photographer that also offers newborn and family sessions. If you get someone in the newborn stage, you might have a lifetime value of 5000 a day, then go through and do the newborn photo shoot. And then a couple of family shoots lead down the track. So you could still outsource because that fee could be compensated against that lifetime value. But I wholly believe like we I wouldn't personally take on a photographer as a client, I think it doesn't make sense for you guys to be outsourcing and paying a fee, it'd be better off upskilling and say our course, it might be the cost of three months of outsourced management. But you've got that skill to be able to then go and run ads for yourself. And we've had photographers go through it, and then they're able to dial in that lead flow. So then when they've got it, like if they're booked out, they just content, wind down budgets for a few months, if it's coming up to their busy season again, and they've got some capacity, turn up those budgets. It's really about dialing in, what are the keywords that lead to inquiries that suit you and your specialty?

Andrew Hellmich

Right. Or I'm going to ask you about keywords in just a minute.

Kaity Griffin

Yeah, sorry. I jumped the gun.

Andrew Hellmich

That's all good. So good. That makes total sense that when earlier you said you know you loved your ecommerce business and having the Google ads, you can turn them up, you can you know, you can increase your spend, and obviously making more sales, you can measure that you get all geeky. How do you know that your ad has produced the results. And it's not just an organic sale?

Kaity Griffin

Yeah, conversion tracking. So conversion tracking is my number one non negotiable in any ad account. So for a photographer that might be your Contact Us form, placing a bit of code on the thank you page, or the Thank you, whatever it indicates that the form has been submitted, and having that fed through to Google ads. And then what happens that Google is intelligent enough to say that if this keyword someone clicked on this ad, and then they filled in a form, they can feed back that information and we can say, Okay, well, we had 10 form fields this month, and three of them came from this keyword four of them came from this keyword and another three came from this keyword so you can see what is generating those leads. And then the goal is to try and figure out Which are the ones that drive the best, you know, the highest volume at an appropriate price, and which ones are duds. So, again, I was looking at a student account today. And there was one keyword in an ad group that had spent maybe $500. Another one had spent $20. But the $20 one has been converting. So what happens, we turn that $500, one off, that's just churning through money, and allocate more budget to that. One that's actually converting. But yeah, conversion tracking allows us to be able to tie back that information and tell Google, if someone hits this thank you page. And they've come through an ad, make sure you attribute it back to the keyword that drove that click,

Andrew Hellmich

Okay. So do I need to have a separate Thank You page or separate lead form for each different campaign? I'm running. For example, if I'm running a Facebook ad, I'm also running Google ads. Can I direct them both to that same landing page. And Google still knows that it's come from Google?

Kaity Griffin

Yeah, So when someone clicks on an ad, it's what's called a GCLID gets added to the URL of so if your landing page, my landing page, Katie griffin.com, if I was running a Google ad, anytime someone clicks on a Google ad, it has this thing called a click or Google Click ID cleared attributed to it. And then that's the way that Google measures that back. So it doesn't matter what URL it is, it just matters whether the GCLID can tie back that information. So you don't need to have separate landing pages at all. And the setup, the actual setup of that conversion will depend on what site you're you're on. Are you on? Squarespace? Are you on WordPress, whether you have a thank you page, a lot of sites don't have thank you pages attached to contact us form fills, it's easier to set it up if you do, but they might have just like a success message. So if you think about the execution of setting up a conversion, if you can just tell Google, if someone hits this URL, that means they've converted, that's a lot easier, rather than if they clicked this button on this URL. That's a bit more technical, but still doable. So it's not a separate landing page. It's just a separate bit of code.

Andrew Hellmich

Okay. So if I have a WordPress site, I'm probably gonna have a plugin that allows me to add that code.

Kaity Griffin

Yeah, correct. So we usually do that through Google tag manager, which there's a plugin on WordPress, called like, GTM for WP or something like that. GTM for WordPress. And that allows basically asked to enter code without messing with the theme and the back end and stuff like that. So it's, it's sort of an intermediary plugin that we can use.

Andrew Hellmich

Got it. Now, you said something interesting that caught my ear. And I'm guessing the listeners as well is you said, if you're running an ad, you're going to send people to your landing page, Katie griffin.com. And to me like, whoa, that's your homepage? Would you send someone to a home page, if you're a photographer?

Kaity Griffin

No. Not necessarily, sorry, I was just using that as an example. It just attached the GCLID to that. My ideal wouldn't be sending to a homepage, it would be to send to the most relevant landing page to what you're trying to get the person to buy or opt into. So if it is your wedding photography package, then a wedding photography page with, you know, that you already should have on your page, your services page, or whatever it is. So the relevant services link, that then gives more information, and then also a chance to make that call to action. So whether it's submitting a form filling out an email, you know, whatever it is, but just taking out the step from just sending everyone to the homepage, and then having to navigate around, take that to make it easier for the end user and send to this specific service or offering that you're trying to advertise.

Andrew Hellmich

Got it. got it, okay. With the ads, like, there's a lot of listeners to this podcast that have a lot of success with Facebook ads. And a lot of the time what the photographer is doing is running a style of AD, whether offering a free session, or print credit, and then getting people because it's a no risk to you. So let's say you see that ad in your Facebook feed, you think, oh, that sounds pretty cool. I've got a photo with my two kids and my husband, and there's no risk, I'm gonna get the free session, I'm gonna get a free print or free credit. That's super successful for us. Can I run something like that as a Google ad? Or do I have to be more general with my advertising on Google?

Kaity Griffin

You can use that offer. But think of it in that when someone's browsing Facebook, you're trying to actually get in their head and say, I haven't thought about a photography session. They're not consciously aware of that yet, or they haven't looked, they're not looking for that at that particular moment. They might need it, they might like in their mind, I need to get those family photos. But you're getting in their face when they're not actively searching for that. On Google, people are typing in, you know, family photographer near me, whatever it is, they're actively searching for that solution. So you don't need to have a specific offer in order to run ads. Because also remember that your ads are generally text based, you're not able to use like your video or as much imagery with Google ads. So what you're really trying to do is get people to your site, and then you can have that offer on your site as like a when they get there. They realize that they've got that offer but you don't need to But it's a great idea like, you'll probably increase your conversion rate, and you'll get, you know, better lead flow from that. But the difference is people are actually searching for you as a solution when they're on Google, rather than being sort of in the awareness interruption style marketing that Facebook will serve. So both complement each other.

Andrew Hellmich

Right. So if I hadn't even thought of this, but you just planted the seed there. So I could run a Google ad campaign, and send people to a landing page, which actually has that offer on the landing page. So I'm just going to try and get the clicks from Google to that offer.

Kaity Griffin

Yes. But with Facebook, there's a better adoption rate of those type of landing page kind of offers, right? So if it's like a, you know, opt in to get this, that's much more suited to Facebook, I would have it as, as long as it doesn't look really promo we like really heavy on the, and I'm sure you don't do this, but you know, those ads that are like, you click here, and then it's like a one, Click Upsell, and then it's this. And then it's that, obviously, it's not gonna be like that, but habit actually still addressing the fact that they're looking for that photographer, because you're not trying to convince them that they need one, you're trying to convince them that you're the right person to take photos of them.

Andrew Hellmich

Right. Okay.

Kaity Griffin

So with a Facebook ad, you have to convince them that you're trying to convince them that this is what they need in their lives.

Andrew Hellmich

Yeah, like don't miss this.

Kaity Griffin

Yeah, they've already decided that you're trying to convince them that your style of photography is the right style for them. You're the person that's meant to photograph them in their family or their wedding.

Andrew Hellmich

Right. Okay. So you could have a more silly mark me and my style as the right photographer for you on the landing page, and then have the offer at the bottom.

Kaity Griffin

Correct? Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich

A little bit more subtle.

Kaity Griffin

I wouldn't hit them with the offer straight up. Because they're probably like, oh, I don't know, I think with a Facebook ad, you're probably mentioning that in the Facebook ad. And it's probably a key part of the Facebook ad copy, or whatever it is in click for the Facebook ad. With Google, they probably don't even read in the ad copy to be honest. It's just where you see on the page ad-wise like think about the amount of times you've Googled something and probably haven't even read the headlines or anything like that. It's really just are you showing, are you there? And then they clicking through. And if they're clicking through and seeing an offer that they weren't expecting to? It might be a bit disarming. So yeah, put it down a little bit.

Andrew Hellmich

Got it. Got it. Just a side thing here. I just noticed now or just the last couple of days that Google has changed. They're like when you do a search now on the page, it's not page 123456. Just a long scroll.

Kaity Griffin

I know. It's really annoying me. I just noticed about the other day as well. And like there's ads like throughout the page. Yes. It's very, I don't like it. But yeah, there'll be four ads, I mean, up until I'm recording this in November. And as of now there's up to four ads at the top or text ads for search ads at the top of the page. And I used to say there's can be up to four at the top and maybe four at the bottom. But now I'm like, oh, three in the middle and you keep scrolling. So it's pretty annoying. But yes, it seems to be just a one big long scroll.

Andrew Hellmich

Yeah. I'm curious that I think personally, that more of those ads in the middle will get clicked now. Because I used to think I'm going to skip past the ads and go to the the organic posts first. But now they're sort of hidden in there, halfway down.

Kaity Griffin

I get but I didn't know like, yeah, I don't know, the interesting to say, we used to be able to tell, we used to be able to have this metric inside Google Ads called average position. So you could say, you know, for this keyword, our average position is number seven, which meant that you were the seventh listing on the page, or one, whatever it is, you don't get that now. So it'd be interesting, like, what sort of click through rate those lower positions get? I don't know. Okay,

Andrew Hellmich

so how do you choose? Or how does Google choose? Who goes in position? 123? Or four? Is that a bid an auction?

Kaity Griffin

Yeah, it's, I mean, there's other factors that come into it, which are more technical, you know, quality score, blah, blah, blah, the most basic level, you pay high, you get higher on the page, right? So the goal is to not be concerned about what's my click cost, you know, I don't want to pay too much. But I'm willing to pay $100 for the top position, not that I would, but $100. For the top position, if it means that I'm gonna get conversion rate of 20%. You know, I'll convert that all day long. So it's about working out which keywords deserve to be spending enough money to get them on the top, because those keywords might have a four to five times higher conversion rate, which means, yes, it pays more to get the click, but it pays less to get the lead. So focus on what the output is not what the input is, often, people get hung up on this keyword, I need to get this keyword that average cost per clicks too high and easier down there. Just looking at one stat and I look a little bit across on the screen, I can see if that's your highest converting keyword and it's got the best cost per acquisition. Why are you focused on bringing that cost down? Let's focus on how we can bring it up so we can get more.

Andrew Hellmich

Right. Yes, that makes sense.

Kaity Griffin

You know, like cost per click is irrelevant if it's converting within your goals.

Andrew Hellmich

Absolutely. Okay, so let's I'm gonna go into Google Ads gonna set up a campaign for my photography business. And I know, I've looked at my numbers, and I'm willing to spend up to $100 to get a bomb on the seat to get someone in front of my camera. That's the maximum I'm prepared to pay. So I might need 10 leads to get that one booking, I might need five leads to get that one booking. So is that a metric that you need to know or I need to know before I start my campaign?

Kaity Griffin

I mean, if you know that you're steps ahead of everyone else. So what we like to do is work backwards and say, you know, as a client manager, or if you're running your own account, have a goal to work towards if you're just like, you know if you have no benchmark of what's a good cost per acquisition? And what's a bad cost per acquisition, you have nothing to optimize again. So a having a metric like that $100 is great. But they having a metric that's established from real time data. So you know that so we always like to teach people that, okay, let's work backwards. So if you know that your lead conversion rate, so any everyone that comes to your site, 10% of those people fill in a contact us form, then out of those 10%, how many of you convert as paying, like, how many become clients? Then we can work backwards and say, Okay, well, is this an achievable CPA or not, because we've got the data on our app, we'll say the average industry cost per click is going to be x, you're going to send, you know, we can work, we can use the numbers to actually extrapolate and say, we'll get based on your lead to client conversion rate, this looks like a really achievable number. And I have a calculator that I work, I've just G shape calculator that I give to students to say, to be able to plug in those numbers, plug in your existing sitewide conversion rate from you know, like a lead conversion rate, then lead to client conversion rate, and then your average client value, the average client value is $2,000. And those numbers like how much can you afford to pops out sort of this is what sort of data you're looking at, and what a cost per acquisition could be for you. I know I've just yelled a lot of jargon

Andrew Hellmich

No, no. That's okay. So is it the cost per acquisition? Is that the ultimate number I'm trying to find?

Kaity Griffin

As a service based business? Yes, you're trying to find how much can you afford to pay per lead and still be profitable? So what is the number because the and it's not just a breakeven, it's sort of like, say, if you're, because I've sort of worked backwards there, say your average package rate is, your average booking is $1,000, as a photographer, right, so if you're willing to pay $100 per lead on the Google ad side, and you convert, you know, one in every three of those, you're really paying $600 for each booking. Now, if your average customer value is $200, and you're paying $600, for a booking, that's pretty crap. But if your average booking value is $5,000, and you're paying $600, that's really good. So the other stats will also impact there's no one single, this is a good cost per acquisition. This is a bad cost per acquisition. It's all relative, but that's the stat that you're optimizing against. Because everything comes down to when you're looking in an account, what keywords come in, under our cost per acquisition goal, what keywords come in over? How can we even an all out to make sure we're minimizing the bad getting as much as we can out of the good.

Andrew Hellmich

Basically, I have to start somewhere, throw some mud at the wall and see which ones start working. I've got to put some skin in the game

Kaity Griffin

100%, you'll know it like, I never promise that anyone's ads will work. Because we don't know until we put the data out there. It's like a real time experiment, you'll have the best opportunity to succeed. But we can't predict how someone's going to what keyword someone's going to resonate with your you know, that's all testing, finding that sort of stuff out.

Andrew Hellmich

Alright so let me give you an example. So I opened up the Google ads is at the dashboard. And I've opened up Keyword Planner. And I've put in a few search terms here like a family portrait photographer, Central Coast portrait photographer, Central Coast, wedding photographer, Central Coast, and a couple of the searchers have a couple of search terms have, when you look under the average monthly searches, nothing, just a dash, and the other ones had from 10 to 100, or 100 to 1000. So if it's just a dash, does that mean that there's not enough to even go after,

Kaity Griffin

I rarely take the keyword planners word for things, because they'll often usually when sort of data just means essentially, they don't have enough data to give you that, but 10 to 100, still a really broad range. And you have to also remember that for that exact match term, there could be variations of that, that your keyword is matched to that aren't included in that those stats. So again, I wouldn't just if that's a relevant term for you focus on and when you're in Keyword Planner, focus on relevance over number of people searching because the higher the number of people searching, the broader your reach would be. So an example would be if you're a photographer, and you specialize in, you know, rustic weddings, let's say, if someone is typing in wedding photographer, yeah, that could be interested in you, but they also could be interested in a retro wedding or this or that you don't know. And you might convert 1% of those people. If they type in, you know, rustic wedding photographer, that qualifying word of rustic indicates a lot more purchase intent, because you're much more likely to convert someone if that's what you offer. So even though that's probably got a 10th of the search volume behind it, you're probably going to convert a lot more of those people have a lower cost per acquisition. So it's relevance over reach, right? And then if you went one step further, and say you're a female rustic wedding photographer, and that's what someone's looking for, again, you're looking for you're wanting people to qualify themselves at the search term level. Because one of the biggest thing and what I mean by qualify themselves you indicate what they're interested at the search term level. So when they're typing something into Google, if I'm typing in the word photographer, most ad accounts for photographers will just be targeting photographer within 13 kilometers of my geographic, whatever it is. And the accounts go bust because photographer might have a lot of people searching for it. Are they searching for a photography course? Are they searching for how to become a photographer? Are they searching for what two photographers charge? Are they searching for? Should I use a photographer we don't know, they have not indicated at the search level, what they're looking for, compared to someone that searches for female rustic wedding photographer in Tacoma, okay, suddenly, that person has indicated exactly what they're looking for. And those people are a lot more primed to convert, if that's the service you offer. So people get really, because I think with an SEO game, it's a mind switch. Because with an SEO game, and with most things, you're looking to kind of get as much visibility as possible. Google, you're not trying to get visibility, you're trying to get the right type of visibility to the people that are going to convert.

Andrew Hellmich

I love that. Okay, so I'm thinking, I guess, SEO or branding wise and thinking about the terms how I would brand me my photography, my style myself, and then using those keywords in my Google ads.

Kaity Griffin

Correct. And not the keywords in the Google ads, because Google ads, think of that as the ad copy those keywords to target people, which don't necessarily need to be in the ad copy. And then layering that on top with things like things called negative keywords, which then block people that might be searching for what you offer, but are indicating that they're the wrong type of lead an example, cheap wedding photographer. Cheap should be a negative keyword, so that anyone searching for cheap, budget friendly, you know, whatever, anyone indicating that they're price shopping, if you're on the premium side, they're not your people,

Andrew Hellmich

right, so you can make that a negative keyword. So your ad doesn't show to that person, even though they're looking for a female rustic wedding photographer in Tacoma.

Kaity Griffin

It's a Venn diagram, where you've got, you know, the, what's it called when you've got

Andrew Hellmich

overlapping circles

Kaity Griffin

overlapping. So you've got your keywords, your negative keywords and your location targeting. And the bid in the middle is where your ad will show. So if you've got a keyword of rustic wedding photographer, but a negative keyword of cheap, and someone searching for a cheap, rustic wedding photographer, Google's like, oh, it matches the keyword, but the negative keywords blocked it, so it won't show. So it's a way to, you know, block those people that might be indicating they want what you offer, but aren't the right type of fit for you.

Andrew Hellmich

So could I run an ad that specific that might only show once a week in Google and I can still get results from that, I would just continue to run that for the life of my business.

Kaity Griffin

A little bit. But a keyword needs at least 10 impressions per month, to be able to show. So if you get there's a column in Google Ads called status, and you'll be limited by like low search volume, that indicates that Google can't run that keyword yet, because it's getting less than 10 searches per month, it doesn't mean you should pause that because in six months time, it might increase the threshold, like it might start getting more popular and get searches for it. So what you are trying to work out again, like you said, it's not about trying to spend your daily budget every day. And it's about how can I, you know, maybe spending six months to try and figure out which of the keywords that resonate with the people that want to book with me. And then allocate $10 to those keywords every day, and leave that tick along. So but dialing in those keywords is the tricky part understanding what what how people, because you might think they're going to search for rustic but they might search for, you know, moody, for example, you know what I mean? Oh, like Yes. Oh, craft, you know, people won't use the same terminology. So it's about understanding, how does my ideal client want to find me? And that might be asking a client? Or hey, how would you describe my photography style, because they might not use the fancy terms you've used. And it could be our she's just really like, relaxed and friendly. And she's great with kids. relaxed, photographer, relaxed family photographer, you know, those sort of words indicate that's where you're trying to get intel on? How would someone describe my business? How would someone search for me if they were interested?

Andrew Hellmich

So with the great with kids time, I would then I use that in my ad copy not in my keywords?

Kaity Griffin

Yes. Correct. Because they're not probably going to type in great with kids photographer, they're probably going to type in, relaxed, family photographer, but then in the ad copy, you can have you know, great with kids, family photographer, all ages, you know, whatever it is to indicate that your family friendly, you love kids that goes in the ad copy, but what someone's searching for, and what you're trying to target goes in the keyword, which is not front facing.

Andrew Hellmich

So can I have say one series of keywords and then multiple ads that show up like on a rotation basis? Or am I what I'd be competing with myself? If I did that?

Kaity Griffin

No, you'll never be competing with yourself Google might do that to you. But you can have say you could test different ad copy to overcomplicate things. I would probably just stick with one ad at the start because they got the new ad type that Google had is called a responsive search ad, which basically you feed it up to 15, headlines, and four descriptions, and it'll combine them into a lot of different variations. So it'll do that kind of mixing and matching for you, depending on the user and stuff. So to make things straightforward, I just say, start with one ad 10 really targeted keywords, and see how it goes.

Andrew Hellmich

Right. Okay. Staying with the keyword planner, and I'm gonna ask you, why is it not to use it so much? Yeah. But like, on this particular page, I've got open in front of me, it says top of page bid low range and say it's got 273 to $2.73, top of page bid high range of $6.79. So is that what I would expect to pay for my ad to show up? Or if someone clicks on it?

Kaity Griffin

Yeah, so Google charges on a cost per click basis, so you don't get charged anything to print impression. So if the ad shows 100 times and doesn't get a click, you don't pay anything? So that'd be a click cost

Andrew Hellmich

Do they stop showing your ad, though if people aren't clicking, it just keeps showing it?

Kaity Griffin

Well, if you're prepared to pay to go in the auction, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich

But it's only I'm not getting charged for an impression. So Google is getting no money for showing my ad, unless someone clicks it.

Kaity Griffin

Yeah. But they're probably getting money from the other people that are showing in the in the auction.

Andrew Hellmich

Okay. Right.

Kaity Griffin

Yeah. So they don't, they wouldn't necessarily penalize you like, oh, this, this, click through rates low, we're going to penalize this seller, at least advertise at none. I mean, you will get a click on it, if you but you only get charged for a click right. But this is why I don't like a keyword planner. Because those stats I find highly unreliable. And also, it will, like it depends on the settings, you've got an A keyword planner, if you're looking at Australia wide, if you're looking at just a specific Geo, it'll depend on a few different factors. And it's good for a guide, but students often get hung up and they're like, the keyword planner told me this was going to be $2. And I'm paying $2.50. And I'm like, that's just what happens, you know, there's no rhyme or reason to that Google giving you a range might be lower, might be higher, the only way to really, truly find out what you're going to be paying per click is to, it's a good free indication. So you can get an indication, okay, in the photography industry, you know, I might be expecting to pay three bucks per click, that's a good indication. But I wouldn't be using those stats as like, why I wouldn't bid on a keyword. That's the reason I don't like the keyword planner is because often really relevant keywords, people see that it's got a higher bid. And they'll be like, Oh, I won't go for that one, then it's like, but that's the better keyword, you know, don't get put off by that bid.

Andrew Hellmich

Right. Okay. Okay, so then what drives that cost up is if there's other photographers in my local area, targeting the same keywords, and we're competing against each other to sharpen Google?

Kaity Griffin

Yeah, so at the very basic level, you need to pay what the person above you is paying one cent more than your highest bid. So if, yeah, the competition drives it up. So yeah, if you're paying, but the top person who's only paying one cent less, once more sorry, than the person next to them. So if they've got a bid set to they're willing to pay up to 10 bucks per click, and the person below them is only willing to pay $2, they'll get probably charged $2.01. So it's not going to just charge you that $10 fee, just because you've said I'm willing to pay that it's based on what other people are paying.

Andrew Hellmich

Right. So I can set a maximum. And I might not ever reach that

Kaity Griffin

100%

Andrew Hellmich

But if unless the person below me pushes me up to that level, correct.

Kaity Griffin

Correct. So I've had in situations and there's different bid strategies that are more complex, I won't go into that don't use that sort of cost per click bid strategy. But you know, when I'd be running ads for businesses that say they've got 10 Really good keywords, I might have their keyword bid at $20. The average cost per click is only probably $2. But what I'm telling Google is, give me that top spot.

Andrew Hellmich

I want it.

Kaity Griffin

Yeah, I want it and they'll charge me one cent more than the next person.

Andrew Hellmich

Right, okay. So you've said it a couple of times, you don't like Keyword Planner? So should I be using something like, is it SEM Rush or other third party software?

Kaity Griffin

Photographers don't get too complicated? It's really as simple as what we just spoke about, like, how do people describe you, you would have Intel around that? What's your specialty? Often the keyword research side of things gets people really, people overcomplicate it, you can see in Keyword Planner, you know what a, but you could use chat GBT and type in good keywords for rustic wedding photographer, and it would spit out you know, you could do things like that. So you don't have to necessarily, you can use Keyword Planner, you can use sem rush, whatever it is, I don't use any paid tools for my keyword research. Because keyword research, I'll look at what the website, you know, if it's an E commerce business, I'll look at what sort of categories they have, what their specialty is, that they're sustainable, is it that they're, you know, linen, whatever it is, I'm using actually more common sense, then try it. Because common sense will be more beneficial than a tool that's telling you keyword research, like you actually need to use, you want to try and find the people that are going to buy or book with you. And you probably already have that knowledge if you ask a few people.

Andrew Hellmich

So are you also then I miss a little part of what you said there about with linen or the biodiversity, whatever you said there? Are you looking at the competition? Are you looking how people would look at your own business?

Kaity Griffin

I don't care what the competition does. I'm interested in what I want to do. Like I might look at competitor websites and see what but I'm really looking you know, great ways to look at what Watch. And you would know this at your own business that great ways to figure out really good keywords is to look at the about us page and see what are those qualifying keywords like, you know, for example, for a fashion product could be plus size and inclusive. So plus size dresses or inclusive dresses could be really good keywords. So when you're looking at a photography business, what are the about us? Or what are the testimonial saying? What are those words that people are using to describe you? It's not really like, I always encourage you run your own race, don't worry about what keywords someone else is showing up for. Don't worry, if somebody's sitting above you on the page, they probably have a crap out account that is, you know, set up poorly. It's bleeding money. You don't want to copy someone else's strategy when you can't see what the strategy is.

Andrew Hellmich

Right. That makes good sense. Okay, so I can really put the blinkers on if I'm running Google ads, just stay in my lane and work out what's going to work for me.

Kaity Griffin

100%. I rarely would even, like, look at what the competition is doing.

Andrew Hellmich

Because you do hear about these tools about you know, spy on the competition, see what key...

Kaity Griffin

Yeah, I don't care.

Andrew Hellmich

Right. Okay, so it's a waste of time.

Kaity Griffin

We don't get any data behind it. I might be spending 10,000 hours on that keyword, but what are they getting from it? I don't know. So and also don't know if I can, like, I know what's happening in my ad account, my clients had account. So I've got the full end to end picture. I don't want to be making decisions off half baked data.

Andrew Hellmich

Got it. Okay. If I'm going to try this for the first time where the listener is, when would you expect to see results like should be a week, a month, three months, like how long you have to give it to say, Okay, this is a waste of money, or I'm doing something wrong here,

Kaity Griffin

at a minimum, happening your mind that are going to give it a real red hot crack for three months, and say, I'm going to try and get this to work for three months, in terms of how long can it take to succeed, or get leads and get conversions. You could set up an ad and it could generate a conversion tomorrow. And we've seen that happen. It's not about length of time, it's about trying to match intent versus what you know, find the right people. So it's not necessarily and it's again, different depending on what your prices are, what your site's like, it's got all these different variables, but it's possible to see results within the first week within the first month. But it's also possible not to see results for three months, it really does depend on your setup, paired with your offer, your targeting, you know, all those sort of things. But it is entirely possible to get conversions within a day. But I'm not promising that I'm just what I'm saying is like, there's no like standard, you need to give it a week for the system to start working. There's none of that sort of stuff. You could, like I've had, we've got a 12 week course that just ended a couple of weeks ago. And there's two students that I'm thinking of one's a service based business, that selling software subscription for, like sports club membership. So if you think about that purchase decision, and through the 30 days that her ads have been running, she hadn't had a conversion. But if you think about how big that decision would be for a club to decide what management's or what membership software they should use, it's probably not something they're going to make in a week, they're probably going to need to talk to a sales consultant, talk to their team, you know, come up with a plan to migrate their existing system, if they have one. That's a long decision window and a big decision window. It's like starting to switch banks or deciding it's, it's a really big, you know, switch I'd cost compared so she hadn't seen a conversion in the month that was running compared to the E commerce student that sells baby swimwear, like with nappy snaps that are really easy for young kids. And she had had like three conversions in her first week. And I was like, You don't understand how good this is. This is so great, because it's probably a quick purchase decision. She's bidding on keywords that indicate that someone's looking for nappy snap swimwear for toddlers. And when they find what they're looking for they buy. So if you're a wedding photographer, it might take you a few weeks, because probably someone that needs to talk to their husband have, you know, think evaluate a couple of other options, find out what your prices are. So you know, it depends on the length, or the purchase cycle or the purchase decision making cycle.

Andrew Hellmich

That makes sense. That makes sense. So with a sporting team, software solution example or wedding photographer, if I'm the account holder, and I'm the website owner, there's no way I get an indication of who visited my website, only the fact that someone did.

Kaity Griffin

You get an indication of how they visited your website through the search term report. So that's a way to optimize to say, Okay, it's been 30 days, I haven't heard an inquiry yet. Oh, but the search terms are saying cheap, or the search terms are saying suburbs that I don't offer I don't really go to and so it could be that you're you just need to do some more optimization to craft a tell Google, hey, here's the people who to go after, stop focusing on these people. So you get an idea. You don't know who they are, by name, but you know, what they're typing in to Google.

Andrew Hellmich

Okay, so that example you use the first time with the sporting team software solution, she would know that she's getting site visits. Yes. And just that she hasn't made a conversion at that point.

Kaity Griffin

Yes. And there's the discussion that I've had with her is, you know, I think there's, and they know that there's a bit of a leaky funnel there. But there's a few things that need to happen on the optimization side on the actual site that Google Ads can't get around like, Google ads won't be able to fix If people are having trouble actually signing up for whatever you're offering. So if your contact form like a photographer that went through the course, her contact form had probably 15 fields. So before someone could actually get in touch there, they had to decide on what the shoot date was, what the time they wanted, what sort of outfit they, you know, all these decisions before they even get in touch with you. Why not let them make those decisions, after they've got in touch with you and just have it as you know, a simple name, phone number, email address and message. That's a lot less buy in from someone and a lot more likely you're going to get the lead, how can you make it easy for someone to convert? So that bumped up her conversion rate and made it so that she got more leads. So it's about also helping Google ads by making sure your customer journey or your user journey is also dialed in.

Andrew Hellmich

Right. So, do you like to see for a photographer, if a visitor comes to the website via Google ad, that there's a lead magnet or a contact form

Kaity Griffin

No. Contact form.

Andrew Hellmich

You want a contact form, but not a lead magnet. Why not a lead magnet?

Kaity Griffin

Well, again, lead magnets would be more suited to Facebook ads. Because if you're looking to book a photographer, you probably don't need a lead magnet to convince you that but if you you know, it's kind of one step in the wrong direction, you want them to book a call with you not just download something about how to prep for a photo shoot, whatever it is, it will probably actually sit on their desktop and not do anything, they probably won't read it. So I don't recommend using opt ins as a metric of success in an ad account. Like an example, my own business, I have opt ins for my business, I don't use Google ads for that, because it might cost six times more to get a free opt in, or than it will on Google on Facebook ads. It's just the nature of the platforms, it's not as suited, is trying to really get someone to be Yeah, fill in a form, give you a buzz. Those are really the key booking appointment. They're really the key metrics you'll be looking at or the key conversions.

Andrew Hellmich

And that's again, because someone on Google has got that buying intent. That's what they're searching for.

Kaity Griffin

Correct.

Andrew Hellmich

Okay. Got it. You mentioned and I mentioned in the intro that you've got courses, I know you've got a waitlist for I think for the big course, you've also got a couple of smaller courses. Like if I wanted to dip my feet in, like, should I go all in just like, Okay, let's just do this? Or do I just get my feet wet?

Kaity Griffin

A number of different ways. So I've got a free keyword series that expands more on kind of what we've spoken about today. That's totally free. That's my opt in. That's certainly phrase on my site, then there's a $30. It's us in US pricing $30 bootcamp, which is essentially Module One of my course, the real focus of that mini course, is giving you enough information for you to make a decision about whether you want to invest in the bigger course. Because the big Of course, it's an investment, it's like photography, it's an investment that you're going to make in upskilling. So at least do one of the smaller ones to identify like, you know, it'll give you more tools to be able to say, Is this something I want to continue further with? And then you can make the decision about the bigger course. But yeah, I'd go with keyword series, free couple of videos, and you'll be able to start doing some research on what keywords might be a good fit for you. With photographers. It's, yeah, it's quality over quantity. It's going to be a small ad account, probably one campaign one or two campaigns. The stuff we teach you in the big course is the optimization the account set up because Google ads is very technical, and it's hard to get it right on your own. That's all covered in the big course, the mini course is really giving you information on do I want to here's here's the theory, do I want to give it a more of a go

Andrew Hellmich

route? Okay? How many people do you encounter, have tried Google ads and lost a shitload of money and thought, Okay, I've got to learn how to do this properly.

Kaity Griffin

95% of people, I mean, majority of our students are gonna say, No one, no majority of my students are coming to me. And they've usually gone through even for five agencies who burn through cash, we just got a client last week that was with an agency for six months, I looked inside the account, it's terribly set up and, you know, really poorly executed, and he's paying money for that. We've had students in the past that have come to the course they've been, like, I'm so broken, because I had four ad managers that were taking money. And I realized now after going through the course, that I was getting taken for a ride, and I also take my money, and they get better results when they learn how to do it themselves. So the skill of learning how to run your own ads is really, it's a hard skill to master because it is flexing the new muscle. It's learning a new language of ads and metrics and all that sort of stuff. It's hard. Google ads is hard in terms of the platform's not easy to navigate. It's confusing. But once you master it, and you don't have to outsource it, that's where the magic happens. majority people get really taken for a ride, particularly if I can give any advice is if you're going to give it a go yourself. Don't listen to what Google are recommending to Google or recommending things that are going to line their pockets. And it's essentially my number one bit of advice would be, ignore Google don't do what they're telling you to do. They don't know what your account strategy is, they don't know what your goal is. They don't know what you're selling, you know, they're thinking with their best interests at heart, which is money in their pocket, you need to ignore that. And that's why you need to upskill because you can't trust the system, because our system will burn you as well.

Andrew Hellmich

Right. Okay. So like, with all that being said, like with the long course, how long is the long or the big course?

Kaity Griffin

Yes, it depends on, you know, we usually get between three and six months of support in form of calls and Facebook support. But then you have access to the course for the lifetime of the it's you get, you get unlimited access to the course, it's not capped. So the students go through it, and then either decide to sign on to our rolling kind of membership with support, ongoing support on a monthly basis. Or they get that big dose of support over the first three, six months. And then they go and added a loan, because I've always got access to the portal, we update videos, because Google changes everything all the time. So yeah, it's kind of a, it's your one stop shop to continuously refer back to the upskilling. And go through again, to that, did that answer the question?

Andrew Hellmich

You know, did you have to dedicate a little bit of time to learn this? But once I've learned it, I should be right.

Kaity Griffin

Yeah. And the learning curve is steep. Like, I don't want to sugarcoat that your brain will be like, Oh, my God, like all the, you know, it's different to Facebook ads, they're a lot different. It flexes a different muscle. It's less creative. It's more data and stats. But the benefit can be really huge if you can tap into the right people on that platform.

Andrew Hellmich

Love that. Awesome. Okay, last question for you. Like, if I'm running Google ads, does Google reward me in any other ways? Like, do I go? Do I get better SEO rankings, for example? Because it's been nothing?

Kaity Griffin

No, they won't. They'll say stuff yeah.

Andrew Hellmich

Okay. All right.

Kaity Griffin

No, you don't get a bump anywhere else.

Andrew Hellmich

Okay, so it's a standalone thing. It's got nothing to do...

Kaity Griffin

Stand alone platform. It's like, if you're running Facebook ads and expecting a bump in Google organic SEO, it's not gonna happen. So even though they're owned by Google, they're completely different sort of arms to their business and completely different tools. They don't have, you know, a cross over.

Andrew Hellmich

Awesome. Okay, got it. All right, Katie, where's the best place to go and learn more?

Kaity Griffin

Yeah, KatieGriffin.com. That would be where my website is. It's got everything there. They'll probably be a pop up that will get you to sign up to that keyword series if you want. Yeah, that's really where everything lives. Awesome.

Andrew Hellmich

I'll add links to that and your other social accounts with the shownotes. And this has been awesome. Well, thank you so much for letting me throw those questions at you and

Kaity Griffin

No worries.

Andrew Hellmich

You're awesome. Thanks.

Kaity Griffin

Thank you. Pleasure to be on.

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The post 547: Kaity Griffin – Google Ads For Photographers: From Clicks to Clients appeared first on Photography Business Xposed - Photography Podcast - how to build and market your portrait and wedding photography business.