Ep.05 Capt. Chris Donato: Lure 101 and the Kona Fishery

The Katie C. Sawyer Podcast

In this Episode, host Katie C. Sawyer interviews Captain Chris Donato, a big Marlin fisherman in Kona, Hawaii. Chris shares his fascinating background, which includes fishing in various locations around the world. He discusses the Kona fishery, known for its lure fishing, and the deep marlin culture in the area.

Our Favorite Lures

Lure Making 101/102: The Kona Fishing Chronicles - Book

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Fishing Hawaii Style - Book

The conversation also delves into the logistics of shipping boats to the Southern Pacific and the different types of lures used in Kona. In this part of the conversation, Chris Donato discusses the different types of lures and their characteristics, including plungers, tube lures, scoop face lures, and bullets. He also shares the historical origins of lure fishing in Kona and the transition from live bait fishing. Chris explains how to choose lures for the spread based on their aggressiveness and loudness. He also discusses the feeding behavior of marlin and the factors that affect lure performance. Finally, he provides tips on adjusting lures for optimal performance. In this conversation, Chris Donato discusses various aspects of lure fishing. He explains how the orientation of a lure can affect its swimming behavior and the importance of adjusting lure position based on wave conditions. He also compares vinyl skirts to rubber skirts and shares his preference for rubber skirts. He discusses the benefits of teasing fish and the challenges of heavy tackle bait and switch fishing. Finally, he introduces GZ Lures and GZ Tackle Co. as platforms for providing the best fishing equipment and educational content.

Takeaways

• Kona, Hawaii is known for its rich marlin fishing culture and lure fishery.
• Shipping boats to the Southern Pacific can be a challenging and stressful process.
• The Kona fishery offers opportunities to catch big blue marlin, with the best months being July and August.
• The marlin culture in Kona is characterized by a deep history, ego, and a focus on big fish.
• Lure fishing in Kona is a popular and effective method, with a variety of lure types used. There are different types of lures, including plungers, tube lures, scoop face lures, and bullets, each with its own characteristics and performance.
• Lure fishing in Kona transitioned from live bait fishing, and lures became more popular due to their effectiveness.
• When choosing lures for the spread, it is important to consider their aggressiveness and loudness, with the most aggressive lures placed closest to the boat.
• The feeding behavior of marlin can vary, with some periods of aggressive feeding and others of territorial behavior.
• Factors such as water conditions, lure design, and rigging can affect the performance of lures, and adjustments may be necessary to optimize their performance. The orientation of a lure can affect its swimming behavior, and adjusting the position of the lure can optimize its performance.
• Rubber skirts are preferred by some anglers due to their durability and color variations.
• Teasing fish can lead to proper bites and better hookups, but it requires skill and technique.
• GZ Lures and GZ Tackle Co. aim to provide the best fishing equipment and educational content for anglers.

Transcript

Katie (00:00.238)
Today's podcast guest is proficient in the art of big blue marlin fishing. We're gonna sit down with Captain Chris Donato and go through different types of lures, what they're used for, how you can make them work the way you want them to, and what to look for in the spread. Stay tuned, it's a chat you're not gonna wanna miss.

Katie (00:27.662)
What's up, you guys. Welcome to the Katie C Sawyer podcast. I'm your host, Katie. And today we have big Marlin fisherman, Chris Donato, joining us on the scene. Chris, thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with us today. Yeah. Thanks for having me. So you are checking in from Kona, is that right? Yep. Yep. We're here in Kona. I love that. So I personally have never been to Hawaii.

I've never fished the Kona scene, not even close. I just have heard a lot about it. I'm really excited to have you here. You have an extremely fascinating background that I think might be a conversation for another time. You've done some incredible things. I want you to go over that a little bit with us. Then I really want to dive into the world of lure fishing, which correct me if I'm wrong, but Kona is known for its lure fishery. Yes. Everybody that's -

what everybody's pretty much doing. Unless they're just fishing for ahis or something with live baits, it's pretty much all lure fishery. The conditions just make it easy for us. We're like in a swimming pool and the way the fish feed here and everything. I mean, it's kind of like the birthplace of like modern lure fishing for the most part. And yeah, that's it's it's the spot to do it. That's for sure. I'm particularly excited because it's it's not like you've spent your entire life fishing Kona.

You've spent, I mean, you're originally from New Jersey and fished the East Coast, grew up sometime in Florida, correct? Spent time in Florida. Yeah, South Florida. Yep. And then you ran several charter operations in the Southern Pacific in Samoa and... Yeah, Samoa and then Vanuatu. Vanuatu. Man, that's amazing. So give us a little bit of like a rundown. I want to know...

what your age range was, what you were doing. We're going to dive in in a separate episode of what makes Chris Chris, but give us just a professional rundown of your experiences. Yes, I won't draw it out too much because it's a whole thing we could go down. I pretty much just grew up pretty much fascinated with the -

Katie (02:44.462)
South Pacific and fishing and surfing to surfing was probably what brought me more so into that area. Um, you know, I, I went to Costa Rica a bit and did that, but then I, I did a trip down to, uh, French Polynesia. I actually was the first time and actually wasn't fishing. I was actually working on a sailboat. So it's kind of embarrassing to say, but I was pretty young. I was like 17 or 16 or something. I was pretty young and I just wanted, I had an, I had an

to do it and I was like, I want to check this out. This is great. No, come on. What a way to get exposed to it. That's amazing. Yeah, so it was like sailing and surfing and checking that part of the world out. I was like, wow, this is insane. I always love fishing. I obviously thought, obviously, there's a lot of fish here. It took a little while for me to end up getting back down to that part of the world.

fishing wise, I went and surfed a lot, but I would just go surf and come back or whatever. And then I was fishing in Florida and long story short, I ended up being involved in a surfing resort with, with a buddy of mine in Samoa. And so we started building it up and we have a little skips. We go out to all the reefs to surf. And so I was one year like, okay, I'm going to bring down all my Florida stuff.

Cause the seasons were a little bit different. Like, um, and I would go down there when I wasn't fishing in Florida, I would take time and go down or whatever. So I was like, I'm going to bring down a bunch of stuff and just go fish with our little like panga style boats and check it out. What's the time of the year and how old are you at this point in time? Um, at that point I was probably 19. Yeah. Somewhere around that. I think I was pretty young. Um, cause I was, yeah, I was in college. Yeah. Yeah. I was about 19, I think.

Maybe, maybe just turning that, but, um, I don't, to be honest, you know, someone was a little bit like here in terms of like seasons. I mean, you can fish there year round. Uh, it just gets really rough in our summer, which is their winter. Um, and then, um, you know, I get that it just kind of gets kind of choppy and rough and windy and trade winds blow. And, you know, I caught my grander there in November. So I kind of say that that was the season, you know, but I, you can fish there year round really.

Katie (05:08.845)
Congratulations. Yeah, thanks. That was a big monkey to get off my back for sure. Anyways, yeah, so I just went down there and just like brought some stuff and just I got my ass handed to me. I mean, I thought I knew what I was, you know, I thought I knew Bill Fish and stuff and I had like, I think my biggest was like a 50.

And I'm on a panga by myself cruising around doing what I probably shouldn't be doing. After your experience, what were you doing in South Florida? Sail fishing and sword fishing? Sail fishing and sword fishing. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Maybe in white Marlin or something. Yeah. So it was, yeah. And I had done some, I'd done offshore stuff, but like, I just wasn't to that extent. And so, yeah. So at that point it was like, okay, this is the place.

It took some time and just things just evolved. And next thing you know, I'm down there. I'm running a 43 foot Cabo there and then, um, ran a boat in Vanuatu. And then we cruised around the islands and it just turned into a pretty much what I did up until 2016, um, was just down in the South Pacific for the most part. You know, I come back forth, but yeah, that was it. So just loved it down there. How old were you?

In 2016, what's the time frame there? How many years were you doing that? Gosh, I think maybe 15 years. I was in Samoa. That's amazing. Yeah. I'm not the best with IDA. But yeah, so I'm 41 now, and I moved out here in 2016. So throughout your late teens, your 20s, and into your 30s. Let me get my calculator. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I'm a knucklehead when it comes to that type like timeframes and stuff that some are really not the best with it. But but I was down there for a while. And then I had the 37 Meriden I had someone that came in and was Joe who actually was my crew for a long time. He works on the series now. And he really he was in like the film industry for a while like working as like, I forget what the word I like.

Katie (07:20.749)
working with all these like movie stars and stuff, like helping them with things they needed or whatever, kind of like a assistant kind of deal. Um, and he did really well. And then I think he just really wanted to get into his passion of fishing. So he had contacted me and I'm like, man, I'm trying to get over to Kona and we ended up being partners in the beginning and he, he invested money so I could ship that boat to Hawaii. And then he worked for me for years and, um, yeah, it was pretty cool. So that's how I ended up. Super cool.

So you ship the boat from Vanuatu? We had 37 Marriott. No, the Marriott, well, so I went, I was in Samoa for a while, then I went to Vanuatu and I was there for a while and then there was a tsunami that came through and wiped out like our whole resort, everything in Samoa. Was that in 2014? No, it was before then. It was, it just hit like Tonga and Samoa. It wasn't the one that hit like Indonesia. A lot of people think of it, but yeah, it was terrible. And.

Luckily, nobody died on our property, but like, and everyone, the resort got evacuated. We were really lucky there. Um, but, uh, yeah, it was totally lost everything. Um, so we kind of had to make a decision with the insurance and everything like, okay, we're just going to take the money and just say, this is done and walk away from Samoa forever, which was tempting because my life was kind of going in different roads. I was definitely following fishing more with my career than surfing. And so.

but I love the place and I missed it and I just, I had so much, I mean, I still do and I'm going down there shortly, like end of the week or something for us as well. So I mean, I go down there all the time. That was home for so long. Yeah. I mean, it still feels, I love it. It's going to be until the day I can't walk around anymore, like it's home for me as well. I can't imagine. So I'll have to go in there. Honestly, like we've been places with the boat, like we stayed, for example, like La Gomera, we lived there for three years and Drake and I are always like, man,

It's like part of our hearts, you know, like that's a part of you. And I mean, 15 plus years, that's a long time. I mean, I have staff that work at the resort that knew me when I was like 18 years old, 17. They laugh at me. They're like, I go down there with my girlfriend and they're like telling her, oh, I knew him when he was a little. And they're like, he has a pain in the ass. I bet. That's so great. But yeah, so. So you all ship the merit. Yeah. So.

Katie (09:45.133)
Yeah, I ended up after that tsunami, I ended up moving back to Samoa because we ended up rebuilding the whole resort. And I was like, I got to be here and manage this and we got to do it correctly. And I'm like, I'm going to turn into a fishing surfing lodge. And so that was the deal and started doing that for the little wall down there. And then, so I had him at that point, sold the, the Cabo got sold in Fiji to a guy. It's still over there. I don't know what's going on with it nowadays, but, and then got the merit down there in, in Samoa, sent it from Virginia.

to Samoa. Oh my gosh. Had it there for a few years and then sent it to Kona. And now it's the boat I'm running now and I'm owner operator. And so the joys of that. Yeah. There's a lot of joys with that type of situation. Oh man. Man. OK. Already just like the logistics. So there we go. That was really good. I'm really impressed. Like what are we? We're 10 minutes in and you've told us your entire life history. So good for you, Chris. You assignment. You've completed the assignment.

The logistics behind shipping a boat already in itself is one thing, but to go to bring, because you brought three total boats to the Southern Pacific. Yes, I shipped three boats down there. One was an Ocean Master, one was a Cabo, and the third was the Merit. None of them were shipped with that yacht path or any of that. I had to deal with, oh gosh, just giving me anxiety thinking about it. It was just dealing with shipping companies and they're like, what do you want to do?

It was earlier in the stage where a lot of people were shipping boats, especially to that region. Or if they were, they were going with Yacht Path or Dockwise. I don't even think Yacht Path is around anymore, but they were the ones back there. I don't know, it was a while back. But anyways, yeah, it was a nightmare. Everything had to be shipped on top of all the containers. And it wasn't fun. I had all kinds of issues. That's a whole different world.

Yeah, I mean, and then after all this and the merit gets to Honolulu and I'm standing there and they're offloading it off the boat in Honolulu and this big gust of wind came and it started swinging back and forth and everybody started scattering. And the guy, my agent that's standing there is like grabbing him. We're like hiding behind a minivan in the parking lot. And he's like, start.

Katie (12:06.957)
Yeah, he's like start videoing with your camera because you're going to need this for the insurance company and shit's like falling off the boat as it's like snap swinging. Holy crap. Oh my God. All this and here goes this merit. You know, there's going to be one less merit and I don't know. Somehow they freaking got it under control, got it in the water. I don't know. But yeah, it's shipping boats is I see so many people do it nowadays and I think there's a lot more people involved like to help you do it and.

It's still stressful even now. It's so stressful. There's so many pros and cons with shipping a boat. Sometimes you can't avoid it, like when you're taking a merit from Virginia to Honolulu. Sometimes you can and there's still pros and cons and people definitely decide to ship. Again, a conversation for another time. Also, the logistics behind going into these,

these places that there's not a lot of people going to to start a sport fishing operation and to create a successful charter business. That's really, that's super impressive. So definitely don't want to take away from that because I'm blown away by what you've managed to do. So.

Tell us a little bit about the Kona fishery. I like to approach these podcasts, assuming my listeners really don't know anything about sport fishing and they want to learn. So, big blue marlin over there? Yes. Yeah, we have big blue marlin. Every year is different, but there's always a handful of really, really nice ones caught out of here.

Every year there's at least a few over the mark that are at least seen and hooked, you know, um, and then a few over the mark is yeah. So over over a thousand pounds. Yeah. Um, the last few years, there's been a little bit of a slump where like there haven't been a lot weighed, but there's been a couple of ways in the last, and there was one last year and then I think two years before I, or Marlin caught one. Um, but they're there every year. There's several people that see them. They're just, they're paying the ass to catch. Um, they pull all the tricks. Yeah.

Katie (14:20.461)
Um, and then obviously too, when you lose one, it always is a little bit bigger than what you think. So there's a lot of probably 800 pounders that get called over the mark. I would think sometimes, so you never know. But, um, that's still a really big fish. Yeah. Yeah. But in terms of like, like bigger, like, like nicer size fish, we get, we get quite a few. Um, I would say, um, you know, things are changing a little bit with that Omni sonar stuff. Like there's probably more, there's going to be more numbers, but, um, historically, uh, if you're catching like,

through the season, like if I caught 11 over 500, I was pretty happy. That was pretty good. But again, that's probably going to start to change, I think with the sonars, because that thing's a weapon over here. Because it's just like a lack of bait. It's flat calm. Like we're fishing in a swimming pool, and there's not a lot of targets to get. No, you don't need a stabilizer. But people are putting them in there because they're just putting them in there, whatever. But if you go up off the ground, so if you go north, it can get a little lumpy. But. OK.

for the most part, Kona, it's just you're fishing in a pool. It's like fishing for bass, but big blue marlin. So it's pretty cool in that regard. So that sonar is making a big difference. But you can find them, you can spot them, you can stay on them, and then you can just watch them come up. So is the season summertime? Is it like June, July, August? Yeah. Well, generally, historically speaking, well, first off, the one saying that's just like,

which has been true in Kona forever. It's like, people are like, when should I come? When should I come? And everybody's like, come when you can come, you know, get on a flight when you can get here. There's big ones caught all the time. There's been a grander caught in every month of the year here. So if you look like at the records, every single month has a grander, you know, a thousand pounder caught in. I think December might be the one with the least amount. I think there might be like one or two in December. All the others have months, but if you look historically though,

The majority of them have been caught in that July, August time period. And so summertime, but like generally a lot of people really like the spring. I've usually seen like my biggest fish of the year in the spring. The fishing can be like really hit and miss. Like it could be, you go five days without a knockdown, nothing. And then you see a 750 and 800 something, you know, pile on. So springtime, I think,

Katie (16:46.925)
Most people here that really want like very large blue marlin. They do like the spring. It's kind of like in quiet type of conversation. Like not everybody knows about it really, I guess. They think the summertime is when you would come, but spring, if you could put in the time, you know, if you can only get to Connor for like three days, maybe spring's not the best, but if you can put in the time, there's usually a couple of really giant ones seen in the springtime. Um, and then as you start to get into the summer, we'll get like a run of rats around June, usually.

How big are the rats? They're like 150, 200 pounds maybe, you know, yeah, somewhere in that range. And they'll start to kind of show up in more numbers and then you'll pick through them and then catch a nice one here and there. And there'll be a lot more like 500 and 600 pounders caught through like that June, July period. All the tournaments run all through, well, they really run June, July, August as the final one in September, but the lion's share of the tournaments is all pretty much July.

I don't get a lot of charters in July because I'm fishing mostly all those tournaments. Um, so my charters are like tournament charters, so not a lot of days in between it. And then you throw in the world cup as well. So July is usually a really busy time. So like if people are asking me when they message me, um, I tell them, you know, come in May, June, August, or early September. Um, that's usually a really good time, you know, but.

Pretty much now all the way up until mid to late September. Yeah. That's pretty good. Yeah. How big is the fleet? Well, it's, you know, there's quite a few boats, but it's not giant. Gosh, I guess I could say there might be like 50 or 60 fishing boats, you know, like that might run charters more like recreation. Well, I guess it would be commercially kind of style, you know, like take it.

paid charters are out there more regular. But the actual boats that you'll see day in and day out, I would think might be more in the 20 to 30 numbers. And then there's days where you don't see really almost anybody. That's a good size fleet, though. Yeah, yeah. Some of those boats may only fish a little bit here and there. But I think.

Katie (19:04.365)
You know, any day you'll probably see between 10 to 30 boats would be what you would see out there. But like, you know, there's, Kona is starting to shift a little bit. Like it's starting to turn into more of a private boat fishery. And there's the, there's, there are charter boats, obviously, and like all the private boats charter, but the owners aren't like really pushing the charters. They're just kind of more like, so the captains have some days to go out and fish and the crew don't go crazy sitting there cleaning the boats.

But a lot, it's starting to turn into a private boat fishery. Hawaii has just gotten insanely expensive and you know, with like the sonar stuff and things changing, the owner operator thing is a really difficult thing to accomplish here. And then we also have a business out of Kona called Bite Me Sport Fishing, which is like a, it's like they got a bunch of boats and it's kind of like cheap style, you know, like you can pay like a hundred bucks and you'll like share, you'll share a charter with.

whoever, you know, and they do all that kind of stuff. And it's kind of changed things a little bit there. They've been around for a while, but I kind of foresee it being a situation where you'll have basically the bite meat charter boats, and then you're going to have just a lot of private boats. So it is changing a little bit. And, you know, so I would say like in terms of boats that are actually really out there professionally just blue marlin fishing and actually targeting it, there might only be really like 10 or 15 of us.

You know, like for instance, me, like I only billfish and I told my charters that when I first came to Kona, I wasn't that way. Cause I had to, I, I was broke. I mean, I didn't have autopilot on the boat for like two years because I just couldn't afford it. I was like, I was just like, I mean, thank God I didn't have like a major breakdown. Cause I, but would have been for sale. Like I was, by the time I got there and did everything that I was like balancing. I mean, it was like, I was just, I was so stressed. Yeah. And, uh, you know, over years you make a little bit more and then, you know,

could afford an autopilot, could do this and you work your way up. You know, but, uh, so I was just fishing whenever I could, but now I'm in a situation where I'm lucky enough where I kind of, um, I just bill fish and I tell people right away. So when they call me or they text me, I'm like, Hey, look, you know, first off, understand, you know, we, we are just bill fishing. If you want to just go catch fish, that's cool. I'll recommend some guys that are really good at that. You know, if you got like a bunch of kids with you, you had a 13 year old with you that he's going to hate trolling around. Um,

Katie (21:28.365)
Let me send you with my buddy who's going to go out and catch you a bunch of Shibis like little yellow fins or whatever. I want people to have a good time. I don't want them to be out on the boat. Like, uh, you know, whatever. And for sure. So there's probably only a few of us that specifically more, more do that. That just focus on the bill fishing. And, um, I think that if you really want to do it right here and like catch a majority of really nice ones, you do sort of have to more target them, um, instead of just pulling.

mixed spread and changing up halfway through the day to go try something different or whatever. I want to get into that. But first, I want to hear about it seems like Kona has, I mean, there's some good fishing there, ahi, ono, excellent stuff, reef, all that stuff. But what is the marlin culture? Because there seems to be a very deep marlin culture in Kona. Sure.

Well, it's, I mean, it's got a really deep history in Marlin fishing. Um, it's, I mean, every year I learn more stuff about the history of it. And, you know, before any of this social media, any of this stuff, I mean, there were guys out there doing just insane stuff and you never even heard about it. And like, there's guys I'll see, like I've known them there and they do something different now, you know, they work somewhere else or whatever. I, you know, served with them for a while and never even knew they fish. And then someone will tell me a story like, Oh yeah, that guy caught like,

three over 800 and this tournament went back out and caught a grander and did that and like all this crazy like all these different stories and you're like that guy you're like what what the heck like the dude cleaning up doing that like what it's just like there's so many like tigers in that harbor that you just don't know about they're very humble or they're quiet or you never knew or like you know instagram facebook all that it's changed fishing in that way because everybody you

Unless it's on a post or something, you don't even know about it really, but there's, there's just such a history here. Um, I mean, it goes back so long, um, to, you know, the early days of, of the Parker, you know, tube lore that caught a grander and all this stuff. So, um, so there's that rich history, um, and, and it's, it's beautiful that way. You know, there's a lot of ego here. There's probably the most ego I've seen anywhere I've ever been. Um,

Katie (23:44.717)
So, you know, there's a little bit of a that side to it. And there's just a bit of a big fish mentality here. Like that's what a lot of us are wanting to target and find out there. And there's a chance of like the giant one showing up whenever. So yeah, I mean, really the culture has been lure fishing forever. And there's a bit of a, there's not a lot of change.

that happens here is a lot of like stubbornness to certain ways that have worked and they continue to work. So why change it, right? But there is, um, there's kind of like the old way and there's only like little adjustments and there's a Kona way of doing things and you'll go and jump on other boats in different parts of the world. And it's a very different, it's not very different, but there is a certain way you can jump on 10 different boats in Kona and they're all doing something pretty much. They're all doing the same thing. Um,

where if you go to different places in the world, everybody has their own little spin -off on things or people are doing different whatever. And so there is kind of like a Kona way of doing stuff. And generally that Kona way of doing stuff is like big, loud, heavy tackle, manly, ego kind of centric, big fish oriented. And that's cool. That's what this place is kind of about. So it's funny when you...

get people that want to come here and catch mahi -mahi or something because it's like, I don't understand. Go to the Keys. I don't know. Go to Mexico. What are we doing here? So I always chuckle. But I do understand. People just want to catch fish sometimes. Yeah. Well, they've never experienced an 800 -pound blue marlin. I assure you that that's definitely generally the case. That's not even something that could even cross their mind, what it takes to do that. Yeah. Yeah.

You mentioned the Kona mentality, how everyone is doing similar things and that it's really deep in the culture and that shows. Kona, from what I understand, Kona is known as a lure fishery. That's what I really want to talk to you about today is really diving into lures because my personal experience in the sport fishing space has been primarily light tackle.

Katie (26:04.365)
Heavy Tackle has been more bluefin. We did a season in Madeira for Looking for the Grander. We didn't find her. Drake swears he saw her, but there was another fish in the spread. I was laughing when you were saying that, but there was another fish in the spread at the time. Hit our long. It was a good one. She was upward 600, right? Yes. Hit our long and we got her and Drake's up there and the bridge just yelling and we're like, what is going on? We had no idea there was another fish back there and he was like, that was definitely.

That was the fish. I didn't see it, but that was July 3rd too. He was like, I know where she is. We'll be back tomorrow. We didn't see anything. Anyway, I have some heavy tackle experience, but very little lure knowledge. We do a lot of - We pulled teasers in Costa Rica or super proficient bait and switch and pulled a little bit of lures in Madeira. We did like a -

like a mixed spread teasers in the shorts and then lures in the longs. What are the different types of, there's so many different types of lures out there. Can you give us a general rundown? What types of lures there are? The difference between manufacturing and handmade lures. There's a lot of lure makers out of Kona. Some of our favorites are out of Kona.

Take the wheel, Chris. Okay. Yeah. I mean, oh boy, that's it. This is a load of questions. Like there's so much there. Um, but I'll, I will try and generalize it. Um, there's, there's a few like basic shapes and then from those shapes, there's like all kinds of spin -offs, right? So you kind of have what a plunger, um, I grabbed a couple of lures real quick from my garage. So a plunger. So this is, this is a big one.

This is a Lee Simmons one, but this is a bigger plunger, kind of like what Joe Yee called the super plunger. And so you could see it kind of has like a taper right here, kind of comes down a little more taper. So plunger meaning it plunges, it pops down, it goes down in the water, it'll go down deeper. And then the longer, the longer head kind of makes it act a little bit more like a tube in a way. But that plunging kind of.

Katie (28:28.205)
drives it down. So you're going to have more downtime in the cycle. And like, generally, these are like pretty consistent with their pop, like, you know, it, you can almost count it like a pop and then 123456 pop one to, you know, they're generally like pretty consistent in how their action is. And they're fun to watch. They're like a pretty, a pretty, pretty good just like, do their thing plunge, pop, do their thing. So that's a plunger. And then, you know, from that head shape, there's like,

all kinds of different things. There's lungers, there's different variations of plungers, there's sharper cut plungers. So the cut is the face, by the way, like when we're talking about a cut on a lure. So there's like, you know, different cuts on it. There's people that might add like a scoop to it. There's different steepnesses of how it plunges down there. So there's so many variations, but the plunger is one style a lure. Then you have a tube lure.

did grab a tube lure. Here we go. There's a tube lure, which is pretty simple shape. It's the first lure because it was a simple shape. And this was, you know, this is more of like a historical style type tube, like a Henry Chi one, like that they were making out of like bar glasses and stuff. This is a koia that he just did like a one off for me on it, but it's a

It's kind of your more historical type of tube. And they've evolved into, here's a tantrum tube, which is made out of acrylic or a type of like acrylic type material. But as the name states, it's a tube. Right. What's the story about the bar glasses? Yeah. So.

Gosh, I don't want to butcher the story too much, but it had something to do with, I think they were like sitting at the Kona Inn. And I think back when, I think it was Henry Chi and gosh, I can't think of who else, but they were, they were basically looking at ways to make lures. And he grabbed a bunch of bar glasses in the back there that they were going to be throwing out or something and put resin in them and was able to basically create a lure off the.

Katie (30:47.437)
off the glass and then they cut it to whatever angle it was. The reason the original tube lures and stuff, they're all at a certain angle. They're all set at that one angle. The reason for that angle was back then the tool that they were using to cut it, it was only made at that angle. That's why they cut it at that angle and then it worked.

Wish I had all the stories in front of me right now so I could like go into details because it's really cool. But like people that are interested in that type of stuff, Jim Rizzuto is a really good guy. He's passed away, but he wrote a lot of books. He's a good guy to look up. Like you could just Google him and look up some of his literature and he's done a lot of historical stuff on lores. There's also a good book that...

Joe Yee didn't write it, but somebody wrote it for Joe Yee, and it's about him and about Lors. There's a bunch of good books about Lors, and it's really, really interesting when you start to dive into the subject and hear all the different things. But Jim Rizzuto's got some great stories. So if anyone's interested to kind of elaborate, you could check out his books probably. Well, I'll tag some – put some of your favorite books in the description. We'll get together on that, and I'll add that. So if you guys are listening…

Check out the description. I'll link some of those books in there and you can check it out a little bit more. So we got the plunger, which plunges. Yeah, so you have a two blower. So a two blower is going to kind of stay more on the surface. And we like to call it mole hilling. And they're not all going to do that. But when we're talking about mole hilling, it's kind of like it just like pushes a bulb of water in front of it all the time. And it'll kind of do like a little back, a little tight.

wiggle as it's pushing this ball of water in front of it. And it just stays on the surface, just pushing, pushing water. And every once in a while it'll kind of push a little bit more, but it really does what we call molehill. But some of the tube lures will do more of like, kind of like a skitter right on the surface and really like just explode a bunch of water. They're really aggressive lures. And the only downside of a tube lure is they're hard to pull in rough water. So a lot of people like on the East coast could struggle pulling these. What's his name? Eric.

Katie (32:58.989)
aloha lures that that smash bait is probably one of the few him and the cramped in baits I think can handle the rough a bit in terms of a tubular but yeah they're hard to pull in rough water again that's why I like Kona exactly and that's why like we're it's such a good lure fishery because we just have a flat calm and we just sit there and stare at lures so we're all like lure snobs and everybody's you know.

Everybody's got their own thing and everyone's got their own opinions on it. And it's yeah, you just like staring at lords all day, which is it's fun. It's like playing with toys. You're just like, it's exciting. And it's a dress them up however you want. Yeah, exactly. Right. And then, yeah, then you have like, I mean, it goes into all kinds of areas. You have like flat, you know, like just like a flat head, like a hard head or something like a mole, craft wide range or something. Now there's a lot of guys that make them with just a resin.

Um, and then you have just like variations to, you know, like this is a ruckus of Marla magic ruckus. Everybody knows a ruckus. Yeah. I mean, it may, and for what it's called, I mean, it makes a ruckus, you know, um, these things are killer, but, uh, but yeah, that's kind of their own type of, uh, of a shape. Like you couldn't really say, Oh, this is a plunger. This is a tube. I guess it, it might be more along on the lines of like a lunger or something, but.

Okay. You know, there's just so many variations to what there are. And then even these ruckus is like, they make them in like a hard cut. They make them in a soft cut. They make them in whatever, which people don't really know about, but you can ask for it if, or try and find them. But the regular just ruckus you get off the shelf is the one that most people catching fish on. But in Kona, they, you, there is one that's like a harder cut, which we would call like a Kona cut or a hard cut lure. And that's just a, that's just a steeper angle.

on the face and it just it's just a lot more aggressive. But again, it's a lot harder to run. You got to really kind of adjust it in the rigor and everything. So but yeah, I mean, you have that then you have you have like scoop face lures, you know, cup face lures like, like the, you know, and then here's a classic scoop face lure. I call my grander on this, not this actual one in my hand, that one's up on the wall, but but this, this this model. And so yeah, you have like your scoop

Katie (35:16.301)
style lures, which are awesome. Um, and this old shape that they were using for a long time back in the day. And then I think they had them, you know, all kinds of different sized and shapes. And the thing about those two is like back when they used to troll, um, the old like wooden, uh, sand, sandpans, they couldn't go very fast. So they needed lures that could like do a lot of action. Um, so like when you start getting into those more like, like plungers and lures that like,

need a little bit more skill in pulling them and stuff. They can't handle like really slow speeds. So, but back in the day, like the sandpans and stuff, they would, they would make them, they would do these. So sandpan is like the old trolling boats that they had here. They were like, okay. I was going to ask, I was like, I don't know what a sandpan is. Yeah, they're weird looking, like the exhaust isn't out the back of the boat. They like an exhaust sticking up out of the top. They were the old original like, yeah, like old banana looking boats, kind of like the Albuquerque boats in the

Carolina fishery or whatever, you know, they're like old historical. There's still like two of them here and they, they, they fish every once in a while. They're like old classics. And how fast, so like how fast were they going? I believe they were like six knots or something like that. They're pretty slow. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so anyways, and, um, so the issue they had was getting action out of the lures because if you're going too slow, some of those two lures, like they get lazy, they'll act weird. Um,

So I think they were adding, you know, they were doing these scoop type lures or, you know, they had these other ones. I think they were called crocodiles or something like that. Back in the day, they were just like a long, a really long head with a crazy cut on it. So they were just trying to get as much action out of these things as they could going slow. Um, you know, I, I, I have to say that like Kona back in the day originally wasn't a lure fishery. It was a live bait fishery and they would mess around with lures and stuff, but really it was, it was a live bait fishery. People would.

grab a bait, they'd go up on the grounds, they'd fish the grounds and everything's changed now. Everyone's fishing south now. No one, I mean, there's guys that fish the grounds, but a majority of big fish are caught down south. But yeah, it was different. So they would catch a bait and then they would pull it off the ledge and they'd be up off the grounds and they would catch their fish off live baits, off tunas and stuff. So that was that fishery. But,

Katie (37:40.845)
it started to change over time. And I think Bart Miller had a lot to do with that too, because in between they would catch their live baits, they'd fish their live baits in the morning. And then in the afternoon they would kind of have to do something. So he would pull lures and he would kind of hone his lure pulling skills. And he started catching a lot of fish and they started catching more fish on his lures. And then the fishery started to change from that point on. I think that that was also a transition where things started to go into more lure fishing and then the bait piles started getting harder to find. And,

fishing started getting really good down south, um, which there's not as readily available. Accus and baits to catch and drag off the ledge. And the lower fisheries just expanded over time. But, um, anyways, that was kind of going off on a tangent there, but yeah, they, um, the scoop lures, the thing about those lures are awesome. They're really good lures. They're, they're very aggressive, but you're not going to catch a lot of fish on them just because of the way that the fish feed on them, because they're so erratic and they move around a lot of times.

A lot of times you'll notice if you have one, there's not too often where you'll have a fish just pile on and get hooked. It's usually like smacks it out of the rigger and then comes back and you'll hook them on the second attempt. Um, so for me these days, I think it's a tremendous teaser lure. I pull it without a hook, but, um, when I used to pull a hook in it, I would get a lot of bites, but I would also miss a lot of fish or pull hooks on a lot of fish just because of the nature of those scoop style lures. So the way it's swimming.

Essentially it's swimming exactly. So the way that they eat it and the way that the, where the hook could be when they pile on and, um, you know, it sounds in my mind, it sounds funny because they're eating tunas and all these fish that are dressed, you know, swimming all over the place. So you would think that that would be no problem, but I just think the way they eat it, you just don't get the best hookup rate. Um, but I get so many bites on those things. It's insane. I have one in my spread forever. I mean, I could see how that would.

Simulate a kind of like a injured injured baitfish. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like it does for Yeah, I feel like it does like its own set of teasing because it's not doing just the same motion all the time Those things just have a mind of their own So if the fish is sitting there looking at it and all of a sudden it does some weird thing just because it catches a wave different I've seen fish sit under that lure and just looking at it and we're watching the fish and the Lord does something and it's just like

Katie (40:03.469)
instant boom and he sticks on it. Can't help it. I think it just has that vibration to it and reaction by it invokes. Yes, for sure. I love that you mentioned that, well, I don't really generally pull this one with a hook. I pull this one as a teaser because of this. When you're picking lures for your spread with hooks, what are you looking for? You want something that makes noise. You want something that is going to

induce a bite from the fish, but also have the hook sitting in the right spot. So what do you look for? Well, um, you know, I, I, I changed that all the time and I, over the last few years, I've definitely changed my spreads around a little bit, but, um, we'll go over kind of, I'll go over like a generalization of sort of, um, what, what you would, uh, what a spread would kind of design to be like. Right. So,

Generally what you'll want is have your most aggressive lures up front. So your closest lures to the boat behind your teasers, behind your dredges, whatever you want, a loud aggressive, like a tube style lure. Generally that closest lure would probably be your biggest lure. So just a really aggressive type lure, a plunger would be a little bit farther back. So more of a tube or one of those scoop face lures or like, you know,

one of those big poi dogs or something like that, right? Something up close, loud, aggressive. And then as you go back in the spread, you kind of slowly taper off the aggression. So, you know, the next position back could maybe be a plunger. And then, you know, on your rigor, you may want something that's a little bit more like of a, just a straight popper, you know, just a flat head or a cup face lure or something like that. And then, you know,

going all the way back to then bullets. We always have bullets in the spread here in Kona. A lot of people think that's like a tuna bait and a bullet is, this is a bullet. And a lot of people - Is that the shape of the head? Because like our bullets are often, I mean, we have one such - There's so many different bullets, like, oh, oh, yeah, here's - I like those little ones for the shotgun. Oh, wow, look at that one.

Katie (42:23.181)
So this is a nine inch one. This is, I probably catch more fish on this than anything in terms of a bullet. Like if I need to just catch fish, I put out a Koya nine plus, this is a nine plus. And then there's, you know, there's this one, there's so many variation of bullets too. And then, you know, there's this little bomb boy one, which is pretty, pretty famous. Pretty cool. Little pinky. Um, but yeah, the bullets are huge here in Kona. Um, and I know a lot of places people are like, Oh yeah, bullets are kind of just for tunas and stuff, but we catch.

Majority of our Marlin on them and they work majority. I brought them. Yeah, I think so I honestly would say we catch a lot of them on there It's surprising whatever the reason is and I've gone to other places and I used to always say like oh They'll work like that everywhere and they don't work the same. I don't know what it is in this It sounds so silly and it's just counter intuitive but like they don't work the same as they do in Kona they can't they'll catch billfish anywhere in the world, but I

for some reason in Kona sometimes they just want bullets. Like every boat in Kona has a bullet in the spread every day, no matter what. Even if they're look, even on world cup day, there's a bullet in the spread. I caught some giant ones on those things. So yeah, it's weird because you look at the size of it. The biggest problem with the bullet is that it's so small that when the big ones come up on it, they push it out. And so you always get like a crappy bite sometimes on it. Um,

Because they're pushing so much water. Push so much water. Yeah. And you get this thing come up on the stinger. But you know, I think what happens sometimes and I'll go back to your question there, but I think what happens sometimes with the bullets is they'll come up on a big lure up close and maybe they're just not, they might've missed it or they looked at it. And, um, you know, now that I'm bait and switch fishing there, um, I'm looking at the fishery way different than I ever did. It's changed my mind. It's changed like,

All my perceptions on Kona fishing has changed in the last year and a half. Is that how long you've been bait and switching there? Yeah, pretty much. Well, I guess I shouldn't say a year and a half. I'll be like half a season and then, you know, so half a season, I guess. So maybe not a year and a half, but I've been fully committed to it for half a season, but a year and a half I've been kind of gradually getting into it. But that's changed my perception on what these fish are doing here. And

Katie (44:39.245)
So I think maybe they're coming up on those shorts and you don't see them and they may just be looking at it and they're just not ready for it. Or maybe they have a half -hearted bite and you just didn't even see it or whatever. And then that bullet comes past them and it's just such an easy meal. It's like a low hanging fruit. So they just pile on. So I think that's what happens sometimes. And we're just saying they love bullets, but I don't know. It could be, it's just a smaller, easier way out the back bait, you know?

That's really interesting. I have a question because you mentioned that you get those rats that come in around May, late spring, early summer. Do you see, I'm just speculating here, do the rats generally feed more aggressively? Are they going to be more prone to hitting those closer lures than the ones out there? Yes, they go through phases of how they feed.

there's sometimes where they're feeding so aggressive. They're just like, they're not even opening their mouths. It's almost like they're being territorial, which I've heard that's a whole nother conversation. You can have a whole podcast on that. Um, because some people think they're like being territorial right before the spawn or something. And then I've heard people say that they're whacking baits to feed the females below them. And I've heard, I've heard all kinds of stuff, right? You know, I don't know what's the stuff. I like that idea. That sounds sweet. Um,

I don't know if that's what they're really doing. I think that generally when I see them doing that whacking thing where they're not, and they're really aggressive, but they're just not eating very good. There's always like a lot of flying fish and small bait around. And I think that's more so how it is if they're just like hitting stuff and there's a lot of bait around. So they're not like committing, but they go through stages. They go through like phases of how they feed. And when they're aggressive, they'll eat anything. They'll come up and eat. Like, I mean, I used to pull this huge,

stupid big teaser and I've had like hundred and eighty like hundred pounders, eighty pounders come up and be all over it. And I'm like, what are you doing? No, that's not for you. Go away. And so you don't they're just they're very aggressive. And that what does happen, though, like you'll sometimes during that time that's that is when like the females are spawning here. So you might mark a really big one and you'll be like trying to get that big one to bite and you'll get like a crazy aggressive bite.

Katie (47:01.741)
If you didn't see the bite, you may be like, oh, that's her or whatever, but sometimes the little ones that are around that female, they come up and mess with you and you hook one of those and then you're like, oh, dang it. That's the case, but they are pretty aggressive for the most part, the little ones that come in. They'll eat everything in the pattern when they're feeding. Everything. Yeah, everything. We had one in Costa Rica, we were pulling a...

XXL poi dog. It's like our favorite lure. Oh, yeah, we got when Drake and I got married We had two separate people give us wedding gifts that were double XL poi dogs. Oh awesome. I love that Yeah, it's a good one. But we had one in particular that I actually have one here that was one of our wedding gifts. It's Oh the fish head one. He doesn't anymore. Yeah, hold on. Yeah, this one does not go behind the spread. No, hold on to that one

We had one that, man, we couldn't keep it. This one also doesn't go behind the spread anymore, but this thing just like - It took some beatings, huh? It took some beatings, but from these little blue marlin in Costa Rica, they couldn't get enough of this one. You mentioned aggressive and loud. Can you just explain a little bit - That's right there. It's aggressive and loud. Super aggressive and loud and just it's pushing water, splashing, moving. It's -

it's making noise. If you're thinking like if you're just sitting in there in the ocean swimming around and there was no boat or anything and that thing came past you and you were even underwater, you'd hear it coming from a ways away and you'd see it coming from a ways away as opposed to like one of these bullets, you probably wouldn't hear anything until it was right up on you and you wouldn't see anything until it was right up on you. So you got to think of it in terms of that fish.

they're in the water and that's coming from a while, it's going to grab their attention. And they're also way more sensitive to vibration and sound, you know, with their, the way their air structures, you know, with their ear structure set up and the way it all works with their swim bladders and how everything works. Like they're feeling all this happening before they're seeing it. And they know you're there before, you know, before they actually have sight on it. So those really aggressive, loud type things I think gets their attention and brings them up in.

Katie (49:17.613)
into the spread and whether or not they eat that lure, it doesn't mean that that Lord didn't bring them into the spread. So like, you may have a lure that you pull every day and they doesn't get bit every day, but you're getting bit a lot and you may not even know it, but that reason you're getting bit every day is that Lord they're not eating is raising them. And so I'm like always been like a big advocate of big lures anywhere in the world. Like I go, when I go in Cabo and I fish the Bisbees, that double X poi dog caught.

so many little baby marlin like they have over there and raise so many fish. I'm like, okay, well, even if they're not eating it, it's raising them. They might come up and look at it and then there's something better for them and they'll pile on. I'm a big fan of big lures anywhere you're at for the most part. I like that you mentioned that the bullets, they don't pull the same in Kona as they pull everywhere else in the world. They pull -

They pull very distinctly different. You say you like the big lures and the way they pull in other places as well as Kona. What are some factors that could, you mentioned the swimming pool conditions, what are some factors that affect pulling a lure and what should somebody look for and how do they adjust how a lure might pull?

if they want to keep that lure in the spread, but it's doing something a little off, what are some ways that you can finagle or work with a lure to make it pull a little better? Because depending on your outrigger size, where the lure is in the spread, how fast you're going, the boat, how much draft the boat's pushing, everything's going to be different. What are your thoughts on that? There's a lot to that there. Conditions are big.

that's going to make a big difference on the lures you're going to pull. You know, like when it gets rough, there's just certain lures that you can, you just can't pull them. It doesn't matter how low you pull them in the rig, it doesn't matter what you do. At some point you're, you're, you're being counterproductive because you're basically going against what that lure is supposed to be doing. So if it, you can't force it, that's a, that's a thing. Like I learned with lures, like even it might be your favorite lore or, or you just bought this lore and it's like so pretty and you want to get it out there. But like, look, if it's not running right,

Katie (51:39.757)
It's not running right. Sorry. Take it out of the spread. Put something else out there. You know, if it's skipping, if it's bouncing, if it's like doing something weird. Um, and I hate to say it, but like, you know, a lot of these lures that are hand sanded, sometimes you get a bad lore and you can't tell until it takes years and years to really be able to like pick up a lore and look at it and like have an idea like, okay, this one's going to pull hard. This is this side. This is going to do something weird or I don't like the.

It's kind of hard. And if you're buying them, just whatever, like you don't know. So sometimes you could get a bad lore that just pulls to one direction or just doesn't act correctly. And then sometimes you get a magic one that no matter what, it just gets killed. It's just hammered. And then you lose it and you try and get the same one. It doesn't happen the same way. And then you spend the rest of your life crying yourself to sleep. Yeah. So every lore has got its own personality. You really can't force it so much, but you can.

you can persuade them to do what you want it to do. So like what I'll do, we use a really heavy leader. We use that Momoi extra hard 530, right? So not everybody's going to use that. So you're not going to be able to influence the lore as much as we can with that leader. But the leader here, I got actually one rigged as a teaser with, I think 530. Yeah. So maybe I can explain it a bit better. So this one does not have a hook on it, but it's got got the leader rate. So.

You have your memory, right? When you buy leader, it's in a coil and it's just always going to have that memory. I guess unless you like did something, I don't know how you could erase that, but anyway, so it's always got its memory. So like when you rig your lore, the coil is going to come out. If you just let it sit naturally, it's going to come out one way or another. Like it could be like that, it could be like that, it could be like that, right? So generally a neutral position to just make your lore run what it was.

made to do, don't mess with it, just see what it does. It's just having this come straight over the top. So it's just pulling the loop is just coming straight over the top. So it's pulling like that, right? If it's this way, the lures are going to run terrible.

Katie (53:43.661)
It's just not going to do the right stuff. So if it's pointed down, it's not good. If it's curling down, it's not going to do well. Yeah, if your coil's like that, it's going to run really bad. And then this also goes into why it's so important to have like a rubber stopper on the back or like a toothpick so you can fix the lure in position. I've jumped on some really, really good boats before and seen they have nothing back there. And it just, that lure is going to do weird stuff because it's going to hit a wave and the hook rig's going to move and it's going to.

There's so many little tweaks. I mean, and I say this because we're literally staring at lures eight to 10 hours a day in a swimming pool. And we go long stretches without bites. So we don't have a lot to do, but just sit there and stare at these things. It's clean blue water. So we see every little thing. So it's like, if there's a little piece of vinyl that's come off, we can tell by the way the lure is running. There's so much to it.

So that coil makes a big difference. So yeah, generally just a neutral position would be to have it come just straight over the top like that. And then what you can do is adjust it. If you want it to run out to a certain way, you can move that coil ever so slightly. So it's kind of like a leash to a dog or something. So like, you know, kind of like that.

and it's going to pull that lure that way. I wouldn't go all the way that way because you'll end up getting that lure will go so far that way to like snap back. It'll like come in and do like wild. That's why it has such an, like an impact. Yeah. But like if you're fishing in a really, really rough, you it's hard to see. I mean, you're just trying to get those things in the water. So I've, cause you know, I fished when I fished in like Cabo and some of those like hurricanes and stuff, I'm just trying to get those lures in the water. I mean, it's just like, whatever. So.

You know, these are, but if you know what they should be doing, and then you can kind of like, you know, that if I do the law, if I put the coil on this lower here, it's going to do this, like, then you can definitely adjust them a bit. So that'll make a difference. That'll pull it a little bit. Um, and then the other thing you could use to, and to, to when, obviously, if you have like a stiff rig, when you, when you turn this leader like that, the hook's going to change its position. So what you will basically want to do is.

Katie (55:57.485)
you know, have it where your leader's like that and your hook straight down or whatever, and, or wherever your hooks oriented. And then you move this where you want. And then you could shove like a toothpick in there. We'll hold it in that position. And then you don't have to move the whole hook rig. Um, and then obviously too, like the hook, we always like to run. I don't have a hook rig with me right now. I should have grabbed one, but we always like to run the hook on these, on the, on the slant face lures. We always like to run the hook down. So, so like, yeah, not up. We like them down.

And it basically works as a rudder. It stabilizes the lure. Um, so if you have a lawyer that's running like crazy erratic, try running the hook down. So meaning like the bend and the point is here and then comes up that way. So we run them down, but scoop face lures, I'll vary it depending. They're all a little different. Um, I generally like having the hook up on the scoop what lures and on like cup, like lures with a cup or a flat lore. You have the hook up.

because it's generally going to try and go to that position. If it doesn't have an orientation, it might just make your lure run funny. Hook down, creates a rudder, creates stabilization, and helps keep it more of a straighter. You get better bites that way. That's definitely what our mate... We brought a maiden that had lure fished pretty proficiently into the deer and he was telling me that. I have a question for you.

Now, keep in mind I'm a circle hook fisherman. Sure. Why wouldn't you? Is it just atrocious to think about pointing the hook to the side? No, you can point it to the side, but you're going to - To the inside of the spread? Yes, you can point it either way you want. The problem with doing that, and I'll do, that was the next thing I was going to say, is the hook on lures like that with a big single hook in it, if we're talking single hook.

It creates, it's a rudder pretty much. So as you move the orientation of where that is, you're going to affect the way that lure swims. So if I, if I have my bottom hook, if I turn it all one way, it's going to steer really, really good that like hard that direction. So if you take a single hook and you turn it all the way on its side, that lure is going to pull really hard to one side or the other. Um, so that would be your only, your issue. Um, and.

Katie (58:20.397)
Personally, I don't know how much of a difference it would make in terms of hookups because it's like, I run the hook down on almost all my lures and we're always hooking them in the top of the face here. And you would think that if they're coming in and eating, like they would a bait or something like this, you'd be hooking them in the bottom of the jaw. And that's why a lot of people don't like to run, not a lot of people, but there are people that I've had this argument with where they're like,

Well, you're just going to hook them in the bottom of the job. No, it hooks them up top here. So I mean, it's a train wreck when they, you know, it's like, we don't know how it happened. I mean, someone told me the other day, uh, it's like porcupines having sex. Like we don't know how it happens, but it happens. And so it happens some, so they're exploding on the thing. But I think Jean Vanderhoek had a, had a theory where right before they, they actually eat it, it rolls. So when they eat it, it actually rolls a little bit. So the hook point is.

because it's moving water. Yes, so it's turning a little bit and that's what was his theory on that, but there's a million ways to do this. That's so interesting. Your toothpick, you mentioned the stopper, which is essential. Yes, stopper or a toothpick, yes, either or. Then, yes, toothpick, you could toothpick the front to move where the leader's at. There's a couple of different ways of doing it, but that's the easiest way, I think. What about moving it up on -

it's positioned in the outrigger, like the halyard. When would you do that? You're going to want to change that all day pretty much depending on what your tack is, what your conditions are like. Every boat's got a different wave signature. There's certain lures that work on some boats and there's certain lures that don't work on some boats because of what you got in the wave.

You're creating something that you want it basically surfing down a wave. Every lure is going to work a little bit different on different parts of the wave. The higher you have it towards the tip of that wave, the more aggressive and pushing it's going to be. And as you go lower, it'll get lazier. And then if you go off the back of the wave, it'll get very, very lazy or like very not lazy, but it'll calm down a little too much sometimes. So you never really want to put it on the back of a wave.

Katie (01:00:39.725)
Unless it maybe was like super rough and you just really wanted to run this lore, you could try that. Um, but I would usually just, as it, as it gets rough, I'll bring it down the face of the wave a little more, even to almost where the, the whole of the wave is there. You can bring it down to the bottom part as it's calmer. I'll go higher up in it. And then every lore, like I said, every lore reacts differently. And it just takes, it's hard to just explain that in a conversation, but like, it just takes years of knowing like, okay.

now I know what that lure looks like when it gets bit. And so you know what it looks like when it gets bit. So you want to try and make it look that way. And it honestly could be a matter of adjusting it like a couple, like a half a foot or something. And it just makes a difference, especially if your boat has big wakes. I fished on some boats that have really, really big waves and they run differently on it. My little Merritt, it's got a...

the waves are good, but it's not like really, really big waves. It's a very like calm, calm spread back there. So like, I don't do too good on like a plunger as much as I do on like a tube with that, with that boat. I just find like aggressive lures get bit more on that boat for me. And it's finding that what works for you and what's working on each wave there. So I would adjust it throughout the day. And then like, obviously like,

If you're sitting there and you're hearing your rigors, because the lure is skipping at any point or coming out just doing this, that drives me crazy. That needs to be addressed. You don't want your lure doing that. I don't care if it's the best lure ever. If you can't get that thing to run without doing that, it's just, I'm sorry, you got to take it out and put something else there that'll run in that condition. If the lure is spending time out of the water, it needs to sit the bench.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, try and adjust it on the wave, try and adjust the angle of the pole. But at some point, you're going to start like being counterproductive to what that lure is supposed to do. You know, if it's a lure that's really aggressive, you want a high pole on it, you want an angle that's like high out of the water. So if you're like bringing it down where it's almost a flat line, and it's not doing what it's supposed to do, then you're kind of being counterproductive, you're better off putting something out there that like would thrive on that that angle.

Katie (01:02:55.341)
And then, so yeah, it's just adjusting it through the day. I mean, we're lucky like in Kona that our conditions don't change too much through the day. You might have like a little bit of morning sickness as we come around Caillou V point in the morning. There's like a reverberation off that point. And then once we get, if you're going south, once you get past that, you're like in flat calm for most of the day, you might get a light onshore breeze at the end of the day, but it doesn't change a lot. So, you know, sometimes I don't even put, I don't even have snap swivels. I just crimp everything onto a regular swivel. So I don't.

changed my lores that much, but, um, yeah. Yeah. So it's just, everywhere's different and you're going to have to just kind of see, you know, what works and you know, when, if you have a lawyer that keeps getting bit, just make a mental note of like, this is what it looks like when it gets bit. And I mean, people know what I'm talking about. If they've had that happen and they just know like, Oh yeah. And they're like, this thing's going to get bit. It's doing what it does. So trying to get them to do that every day is like, that's the.

That's a little difference in Kona. I think where some boats excel past other boats is like constantly tweaking and getting the lures to be in the best spot ever. And it may only equate to a few more bites a year, but that's a few more bites a year. So what if one of those was a 90 or 1200? So yeah, there's a lot to it. You know, I think it's funny when people say like, Oh, all lures are the same at eight knots or whatever. And it's like, well, you really haven't fished Kona then.

Cause I've heard that all the time. They're like, ah, I just put a couple of Moldcrafts out there. And, uh, you know, I mean, I get it, but there is, there is a lot to lore fishing. If you're actually going to really like pursue lore fishing, you know, I mean, we all know blue Marlin eats some stupid things. We've seen that, but day in and day out, if you want to get more bites and then other people, you got to figure out your, your lore fishing game, even if you're not putting hooks in them, that's still about a raise a fish. So.

That's my favorite. That's my favorite. What's your opinion on, like, okay, give me the scoop on plastic skirts versus vinyl skirts, rubber skirts. Okay. Yeah. Well, I have a little bit different, like unconventional thoughts on that, but most people here like vinyl. Most people in Kona all love vinyl. Again, it's a tradition here and just things don't die out here. Very, you know, new things.

Katie (01:05:20.237)
don't get caught with a lot of resistance here and even rubber skirts. So the vinyl is just the name of the game here. And I can understand why it does have a very, a better transition. Like there's not a lot of bulk to it. So it does have a pretty good transition when they feed on it. And I've heard so many different theories. I've heard that the sound that it makes through the water.

The vinyl itself is a sound that they like. I don't know if that's true or not. I heard that, you know, because it's slippery, it's a little bit better transition. And I don't know, you know, some lures do run better with vinyl. You just got to figure out what works for you. For me personally, I like a rubber skirt with just not a double rubber skirt. I like like this rubber skirt with a couple of newels underneath it. And there's like nothing there for that fish to.

It just slides right through the lore runs good. You still have different colors. Um, and then I, I like the rubber skirts are more durable, um, for me at least. And I find like, I have better color variations now, but that being said, frothy is making those like colorful, uh, vinyl, like fish print vinyl. That's pretty cool. I hear a lot of people liking that. Um, so that's, that's cool. You know, before we only had like a couple of colors we could pick from. So I've been wanting somebody to do that forever. Um,

So I'm glad he's doing that. That's kind of cool. So, but for me, I like, you know, just some new holes, you know, or tough tails, whatever they call them underneath. And then I put a rubber skirt and yeah, you get like, there's nothing there. It's like, what about like, do you see, do you feel that way for both lures and teasers or? No, I feel a little bit differently with the teasers, but I'm a little bit more.

new to like the bait and switch stuff. Um, and so I may change my theories on this, but right now, like with my teasers, I do have, I'm doing double rubber skirts on them. And, um, because I find that without the hook in there and everything, I need to add a little more stability to make the lures do what I want. Um, whereas that hook and that rudder and that's really now taking it out, it's now changed the dynamic of that lore. And at first I was like,

Katie (01:07:44.749)
What is going on? Why is this lower doing this? And I couldn't get them to run how I wanted. So I added a double skirts. I added them. I made them a little bit longer, added a bit more stability, um, and was able to kind of get them more to do what I wanted. And then, uh, I also feel like, I don't know, maybe that rubber feel, um, that squishy kind of rubber feel doesn't turn the fish off. It could come back and whack it a bunch of times. Um, but if I have a lawyer that runs good on vinyl, I'm going to keep it on vinyl. I just.

The teasers I'm pulling right now are very aggressive and all over. If they don't run good on vinyl, like scoop lures, they don't run good on vinyl. They get too weird and they'll disappear and they'll get lazy. They'll get all over them. They just don't run good on vinyl for whatever reason. How interesting. Yes. I don't like putting vinyl on them. I think it's cool that you brought up that also additionally, if you have a lure that's not running the way you want it to,

you might change out the length of the skirt, the material the skirt's made out of. Now, when we were bait and switching, we were primarily pulling vinyl skirted horse. It almost felt like, I saw a handful of times when we had a rubber skirt out there that if a fish gets a mouthful of that, if you don't get the teaser away in time, it's -

Oftentimes it's going to get all up wrapped up in there. It almost felt like the vinyl wasn't quite as sticky with the bill of the fish. We had a couple of Marlins swim away with plastic skirts off their bill. We're like, oh man, when that happens. I'm newer to that bait and switch stuff, so maybe I will change my theories on it.

Well, definitely keep me posted as you go because I'm curious. I'm not on all of them. I'm pulling double. I'm pulling how I have this, one rubber skirt with the noles underneath. So far, I haven't had too many problems, but we'll see. That's cool. We're running low on time, but I want to touch on a couple of things. The first one is with your bait and switch, are you pitching?

Katie (01:10:01.741)
130s out there? Well, right now we're pitching an 80 that I beefed up. I got the drag redone and beefed it up, put 130 on it with backing and all this, but I don't know, but we're going to try that because what happened with us towards the end of last year was my, it was my biggest concern was it's, you can't pitch a 130 really like you have to be so good. And, uh, I just don't think it would work. And, uh, so we were doing like the tingham where you put a lore.

And, uh, so they were converting really good to the tingham, but we weren't catching every fish and it wasn't like pitching a dead bait to them. It's just a different thing. So we were, yeah. And we were trying to, and I know a lot of guys in Madera do it because sometimes they can't get bait or whatever. And so they, they pull those tingams, but they get a lot of shots there. Like our fish, you know, everybody's going to say that you cannot bait and switching Kona. That's what, that's just what people say. That's what they're telling me that I'm.

making a mistake, doing it, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's, they do bait and switch, but you're not going to get as many shots as like you would out of a fish. Like every, they're different everywhere, right? Like St. Thomas, they're going to pile on so many times, right? Like, and so they're a little bit different. Yeah. So they do feed a little differently. So, um, yeah, I think the, the dead bait thing is, is better than trying that tangum. Um,

I don't know. We missed some fish on that tingam and I was like, what the hell? So what is the tingam? It's like a lure that you pitch? Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I think the original one was like basically a mold craft with no skirt underneath it with only a couple strands of skirt and just a hook. So it's just a piece of rubber with a hook. And so any variation of that, I think you could be called the tingam. And basically you put it in your spread as you're teasing the fish.

And so you basically don't want to get it out there until that fish is, is gone. You basically want it going past. So the fish doesn't see it as it's chasing that teaser. And then you want to get it in position because ideally you want the going away by on the tingam. You don't want them chasing the teaser and then switching and eating a going like a behind bite. You want to aim for a going away bite, which is different than a bait and switch, right? Cause I don't really want that going away when you're feeding one. I.

Katie (01:12:21.677)
as much as you would with a tingham because that going away bite with a hook lure is going to be way better than the behind because he's got that hook as he's eating it. He's got that hook coming right at his face. So, so if you get that going away, if you do like inch, like make it all work, right. It worked pretty good. Um, but, and they're not all going to feed that way. A lot of times you just get that side rush, you know, and then, um,

It's just like lure fishing, whatever. I mean, might as well, whatever. So the only thing that, and then that changed my opinion on lures. And like how I said earlier, once I started bait and switch fishing and all that kind of stuff there, I started thinking about the marlin fishing in Kona way different. Because I saw that when she got them fired up on a very aggressive lure, didn't matter so much what was there. They're gonna eat whatever was there next. So.

My, my thought was like, well, if our really aggressive, crazy lures that raise these fish are terrible at hooking them, then, you know, how often are they coming up and missing them or whatever, and then eating these other ones that are easier running lure, um, like a straight runner or, or something like that, that, um, has a higher hookup rate. Then why are we, you know, I don't want to put.

hooks in these big aggressive stuff anymore, or this, you know, stuff moving all over the place. I just want them to convert to something that is going to hook them and that changed my mind on what these animals are doing. I mean, I've had times where they come up and hit, you don't even see them and they hit the teaser and I have clips up in my bridge. And they're big fish. Yeah. And like I'm staring, I'm looking and I've never seen the fish and it comes out of the clip.

And if you didn't know better, you would have just thought, Oh, maybe they hit a piece of grass or like, we don't have grass in Kona really, but maybe you don't have roadways. Yeah. Like we went downhill, like we went down, see it caught a wave and you look at the teaser and you pull it away and there's nothing there. The fish is, it was a ghost and you're like, what happened? And then out of nowhere, there's like, uh, out of nowhere, the stinger comes down and you got them on.

Katie (01:14:38.445)
And so I wonder how often that happens where a fish will just come up on one of those you don't see it and then eat those easier lures in the back. So I've changed my spread to have a lot better hookup rate stuff in the back. That's cool. Yeah, I'm glad you said that because I was going to ask you what's the benefit of teasing the fish? When you're talking about the tingam.

You're like, I don't have a bait, but I have a lure with a J hook. I'm going to tease the fish up and then give them this lure with a J hook. Why even pull the teaser? How does the behavior of the fish change when you properly tease one? That was the thing too, people will say that. If you're going to just switch it to a lure, if you're going to just switch the fish over to a lure, then why pull? You know what I mean? Why pull?

Why not just put a hook in your teaser, right? And the reasoning behind it is that you're trying to make that fish do a different bite. So you're wanting it, when they come up on the teaser or when they come up on a big aggressive lure up like that, you don't know how that thing's gonna feed. It could do whatever. It could come up and explode on it. It could come up and whack it with its bill. So your chances of hooking that fish is up in the air.

But if you tease that fish all the way in there, they're, they're, they're getting aggressive. They're pissed off, you know? I mean, as long as you can tease it away. Like I found like, if I struggle and I can't get it away and he eats it too many times, then I'm kind of screwed. And then you're kind of like, that's, that's where I mean, I mean, that's why I like it so much is because there's just so much skill in it and there's so much involved in it. And there's so much, like, it just adds a whole nother element. But yeah, if that thing gets you like,

Yeah, you're screwed. But if you can, if you can get it away and get everything in position, that bite is going to be a proper bite usually. And like what we were saying with the lore was that we're hunting for that going away bite. So you're not always going to get a going, you generally aren't going to get a going away bite when they come into the spread from behind or whatever. You're going to usually get like a inside out fight out call it, which isn't a bad bite either. No. Or.

Katie (01:16:55.949)
The worst, I think sometimes is the ones from behind or if they just come straight up at it and like a shark at back. Especially with lures, especially with day hooks. Yeah, it's not the best. So, and that's probably where you were like talking a little bit about having the hook on its side that might, you know, and that's where people, you know, then you can go down the double hook rig where you have one on the side and one down and maybe that would help. But yeah, you're a...

you're not going to get that going away by what you want. But when they come off the teaser and then you have what you would call a tingum, if you can get that over the shoulder going away, when you see that back and like if I'm sitting in the bridge and he eats it that way and I see his back and I see his dorsal, you're like, oh yeah, we got this guy. That's so cool. Pretty much. That's so interesting. But it's still, it's not as good as a dead bait. I don't care what anyone says. Like it's not. And a circle hook.

We had, yes, in a circle, like we had him eat it perfectly. And I'd just been like, oh yeah, no worries. Like whatever. And then pull hook at some point. We're just. That hurts. Yeah. So it's just not as good as a dibbik, but, uh, if you don't have it, it did work. And that's what we were doing with the one 30, because you can do it with a one 30. We were just having a drag light and then he would, my mate would hold it and get it over to where it needed to be. And when it ate, he would let go and run over and then slowly push the drag up.

And, uh, and that was kind of what we experimented with at first, because the, the, the consensus in Kona is everybody says the fish don't tease in Kona and you, you cannot bait and switch in Kona. And I disagree with it, but that's just my opinion. But I, we wanted to just test it first and see. And from what we saw, um, I can't make a full, like proper, this is going to work there until I give it a good, like maybe a couple of years.

giving it hard, but from what I've seen so far, I believe that the fish will tease you and I believe you can do it. It just takes work. It's different. Yes, it's totally different. It's a different, I mean, say like me going in and trying to lure fish, I just like, I don't know what I'm doing. It just, you have to learn, you have to learn the game. You have to relearn the game.

Katie (01:19:11.341)
Question for you, you're working now with GZLures. We're going to be doing some collaboration moving forward. You want to talk a little bit about what you guys are launching over there? Yeah. Yeah. So the first thing is GZLures. A lot of people get confused with the name and they think we make lures. And we do not make lures. We leave that to the artists, the professional lore makers.

I mean, I wouldn't even attempt to make a resin lore. I just, it's not, you have to, I have a lot of respect for these guys. That's what they do. And that's the lores we carry are the ones of the guys that have been doing it forever, not the person that just picked it up as a hobby. So, you know, so we carry lores. And I think that that is where the, you know, that's where it originally started was it was just a lore, a company that sold lore. So that's where it became GZLores. We're now kind of transitioning.

to that we're going to also be using the name GZ Tackle Co. And so basically, yeah, so we're an online company and our goal is to sell the best of what's out there. So, you know, the stuff that professionals use. So like, for instance, working with you on that side of fishing and, you know, my specialty is what we just talked about. So I can all day long know what to pick. I can know what lures we want, what this, that hook rigs, all that stuff. But then when we start to venture into different areas of fishing,

we're using our pro staff, I mean our pro team, and we're doing a collaboration with you on a bunch of stuff. And like, so that's ideally what we want to have. We don't want a customer to go on our website and have like 20 different hook brands and 20 different hooks and like 15 different lines and kayaks and all different fishing. That's not us, it's just not gonna be what our model is. That's not what we're based off of.

And maybe there's more money in that, but that's just not what our, that's not what our plan is. Our plan is to provide like what the professionals are using, working with the professionals to provide what is the best stuff out there. And then putting together content on like how to use it, how to videos, like things like that, like just providing the elements. So, you know, if you go on this site and you're like, okay, I want to buy this hook. I want to buy this. I want to do this.

Katie (01:21:31.725)
And then you can be like, well, why do we have it? And then you can read the different reasons and learn. And so, I don't know, we, we felt like there was a hole in the industry for that. And so when I got involved, um, and became a partner on the company, I just basically told Cole straight up like, yeah, I want to do this, but we got to do it right. Like, I want to carry what's the best stuff out there. Um, and I, you know, I don't want to get persuaded to like carry this guy's lures because he's a friend of someone or what, like we want to carry what is the best stuff out there. So.

That's our mission and it's been fun. I love it actually, I really do. And it's growing and then what we just did now was launching that subscription service, which is, you know, it's got a lot of elements to it right now. Like for instance, like you get a discount, there's like exclusive content on there. We have like discounted charters all over the world. We have like a social media type thing on there. So we wouldn't go and talk with each other and.

Just a bunch of like, that's just a start, but mainly like the thing is a platform. And I have, we have a lot of ideas that we're going to start implementing into it, but it's a platform that can just be useful in so many ways. And we can do like live seminars on the thing and we can do talking about doing like chaperone, like not, I shouldn't say chaperone. That sounds funny, but like, like trips where like one of the professionals goes along on it. It's like a school. It's not like a chaperone. I mean,

Be the exact opposite of a chaperone trip when you think about it. You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, like, I'm going to make sure you guys are okay. Bedtime is 10 o 'clock. Okay. We're fishing tomorrow. No, it's the exact, probably the exact opposite of that. Like hosted trips. That's awesome. Hosted, hosted trips. That's the word we need to use. The chaperone thing used to get thrown out. So hosted trips. Um, and I mean, there's just all kinds of ideas we have that we're going to.

you know, jump into it and just kind of just as more people get involved in like the budget increases and we can do things where just the platform will continue to grow. It's not, it's not going to be one of these things where it's like, okay, this is what you get and never, never changes for five years. Like I want it's a full time job. Exactly. And that was the main thing like Cole and I had to be like, look, this is not going to be like a passive thing. Like we do this, we're going to do it right. And it's got to continually evolve. So.

Katie (01:23:53.709)
That's why it is a paid subscription because it's like, the stuff we want to do, it can't just be done for free. I love all you guys, but come on, how we do this without some sort of income? It's got to - No, if it's going to be educational and it's going to be good, it's going to be - Yes. The subscriber is going to grow from the experience with the GZ -Elite membership. That's the plan and we call it GZ -Elite. That's awesome.

That's where we're at with that. Well, you guys, if you're interested in that, I'm going to go ahead and tag that in the description below as well. Make sure you check it out. Chris, I can't thank you enough for your time. I have one last question for you. What is it that keeps you coming back to the ocean? Oh, wow. What is it that keeps? Well, I mean, it's like everything for me.

I couldn't live without it. I mean, between the surfing and the fishing, I mean, it's everything. I mean, it's like my mistress, I guess you could say, because it's like, it takes me away from everything. But at the same time, like when I'm there, I'm just so in love with the fact of being in it and being involved in everything that's going on out there. And yeah, it's just, it's everything, you know? It's being outdoors, it's the activities of it, it's enjoying the ocean. So.

I can't really say what one thing is, but I just know that I couldn't live without it. Even if it wasn't fishing, there's always have to be involved or on the ocean or near the ocean. That's just how I am. Whatever reasoning that is, it's not changing. I don't see that happening. I'm definitely not going to be in a landlocked state at some point in my life. I sure hope not. I've been for good. That was awful. No, that was a great answer.

I love it. The way the ocean makes us feel, you just can't compare it to anything else. Oh yeah. You get home after a day on the ocean, fishing, surfing, whatever it is, whatever you're doing, just even going swimming, going to the beach and going swimming all day. You just have that feeling about you that I have yet to see anything similar. It's a healthy high. It's a healthy high. I love it. It's a salt. Exactly. Yeah.

Katie (01:26:16.429)
Cool, Chris. Well, I really appreciate your time today. Thanks for taking us to Lure 101 school. And we'll definitely have you back on this channel and talk a little bit more about what it takes to fish around the world. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's so much to the lure thing. I feel like I opened so many rabbit holes and like, there's just, you could go on for hours and hours, but I hope the little things I did say helped. And I'm sorry if I like left out some stuff or botched some stories here or there or whatever, but, um,

You get the idea and I'm happy to talk lures with anyone whenever I love this stuff. It keeps me excited. Y 'all check Chris out on GZ Elite. Chris, will you also tell us where everyone can find you on social media? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Grander Marlin. So pretty easy. Grander Marlin. Pretty easy. That's pretty rad. Thanks so much for joining us, Chris.

And that's a wrap you guys. You heard it here on the Katie C Sawyer podcast. If you're watching this on YouTube, don't forget to like and subscribe. Leave a review on your podcast listening platform if you would like to. And as always, don't stop chasing your wild. We'll see you guys out there.