Successful Negotiations with Kwame Christian #20

The mBraining Show

Facilitating Successful Negotiations

Kwame Christian Esq., M.A. is a business lawyer and the founder of the American Negotiation Institute. He is passionate about teaching entrepreneurs and business professionals the art of negotiation and how to facilitate successful negotiations so they can get better deals and advance their careers.

The American Negotiation Institute also produces the show “Negotiate Anything,” the top ranked negotiation podcast on iTunes. The show has been downloaded over 75,000 times and has listeners in 140 different countries.

He is passionate about teaching entrepreneurs and business professionals the art of negotiation and how to facilitate successful negotiations so they can get better deals and advance their careers.

successful negotiations

He is regularly invited to give negotiation seminars and consults with individuals and companies to create and implement powerful negotiation strategies.

He also hosts a podcast called Negotiation for Entrepreneurs where he interviews successful entrepreneurs and shares powerful persuasion techniques.

americannegotiationinstitute.com/prep

americannegotiationinstitute.com/partnership

Highlights:

01:41 Introduction
04:18 Business Mediation
06:24 Negotiation factors
12:18 Speaking to the heart
14:09 Pathos Logos Ethos
15:43 Reading body language
24:48 Negotiation outcome
32:08 Dealing with fear
37:49 Practice is key

Transcription:

Intro 0:04
You’re listening to The mBraining Show, a show about the new field of mBIT, where you’ll get a blend of neuroscience-based research with practical applications for wise living. And now here’s your host Bill Gasiamis.

Bill 0:19
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Bill 0:35
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Bill 0:51
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Bill 1:17
And you’ll also find the pack of successful appraisal coaching cards. So if you’re curious, go to revealsolutions.com.au and check out the other cards as well. And for a limited time take advantage of the promo code Billy Boy, which you need to enter at the checkout as you are about to complete your purchase to receive a 10% discount for listening to the show.

Introduction

Bill 1:41
Today, I have Kwame Christian with me. Kwame is a business lawyer and the founder of the American Negotiation Institute. He is passionate about teaching entrepreneurs and business professionals the art of negotiation so they can get better deals and advance their careers.

Bill 2:01
He is regularly invited to give negotiation seminars and consult with individuals and companies to create and implement powerful negotiation strategies. He also hosts a podcast called negotiation for entrepreneurs, where he interviews successful entrepreneurs and shares powerful persuasion techniques. Welcome to the show. Kwame how are you mate?

Kwame 2:25
I’m doing well. Thanks. Thanks for having me.

Bill 2:28
Thanks for being on the show. You’re coming to me live from Ohio. Is that right?

Kwame 2:33
That’s right.

Bill 2:34
How’s the weather over there today, man?

Kwame 2:37
Ah, you know it’s touch and go today. It’s November. The weather’s starting to turn. So I’m appreciating this weather though. It’s about probably about 45-50. And that, which is pretty good for November, so I’m not gonna complain too much.

Bill 2:52
So you don’t know about Melbourne weather? Do you?

Kwame 2:56
Um, I am a big tennis fan. So I do know more than most Americans do. But I’ve never been I’ve never been unfortunately.

Bill 3:03
Yeah. Well, you’ve never experienced Melbourne weather mate. We are in summer Today’s the first day of summer. And we have yet to see spring we haven’t had a spring we’ve had an extended winter. And we’re going straight into summer.

Kwame 3:19
Oh, wow. That’s pretty intense.

Bill 3:22
And everyone’s complaining about it. We’re kind of used to it. But we never really do get over it. You know, Kwame, tell me a little bit about what you do.

Kwame 3:30
Yeah, so I’m a business lawyer and a negotiation consultant. So in my life, as a business lawyer, I do the basic stuff, like negotiate contracts for my clients, draft contracts, and those type of things.

Kwame 3:43
But what’s really exciting is what I’m doing as a negotiation consultant, because that’s a lot of fun. And really, I have the opportunity to work with my clients to get them better deals on the major issues they’re dealing with.

Kwame 3:54
And recently I’ve been able to do a little bit of business mediation. So I work with business partners who are having difficulties and arguments between them and working with them to figure it out so they can get back to business.

Kwame 4:07
So this has been really exciting recently, and I’m looking forward to just keep pushing forward and getting the opportunity to spread the word about negotiation and teach more people about it.

Business Mediation

Bill 4:18
Awesome. You know, when you get involved with two organizations, do you see yourself as like a peacemaker? Somebody who sort of helps to find common ground? Or how do you sort of see yourself in the whole engagement?

Bill 4:35
Yeah, that’s a really great question. Because it depends on who the client is. And I think my background as a lawyer helps a lot with this because sometimes it’s not that clear. So if one of the partners brings me in, they might want me to kind of more be on their side to help them negotiate a deal that’s more favorable to them.

Kwame 4:53
But sometimes it’s both partners coming to me saying hey, we need help as a collective help us get on the same page. For me that’s a little bit more fun, you know, because I get to be the peacemaker.

Kwame 5:06
On the other side, when I’m working on with one party versus another, it’s more me being the dealmaker, working to get the best deal for my client. Both are fun, but I like the whole coming together Kumbaya at the end that we can have at the with the mediation. That’s a lot of fun.

Bill 5:21
I love the coming together Kumbaya thing so we get to high five each other and do all that kind of stuff, right?

Kwame 5:27
Absolutely, absolutely.

Bill 5:30
Why not? That’s a great way to finish a negotiation. Tell me this program goes to around 30 countries, and it’s listened to by majority coaches, so people who coach other people to achieve amazing things.

Bill 5:45
And sometimes coaches really struggle in the business side of what they do, because coaches are all about helping other people, right. They’re all about giving, they’re all about seeing other people grow.

Bill 5:59
And the challenge that some coaches have is that they’re passionate about their small business, but they don’t make enough money out of it. And I feel that negotiation is something that falls over, tell me as a coach coaching you, what can I negotiate in that type of engagement? So what are the things that I could negotiate with a prospective client?

Negotiation factors

Kwame 6:24
Right? And I love this question, because this is this really gets to the heart of the matter. So let’s break it down to the essentials here. So with negotiation, my definition of negotiation is anytime you’re in conversation with somebody, and somebody in the conversation wants something.

Kwame 6:38
And when you think about it that way, we’re negotiating all the time. And in fact, it’s the people that were closest to, those are the people that we’re going to be negotiating with the most. And so clients, colleagues, family members, that’s a big one, you know, so we’re always negotiating.

Kwame 6:52
So for you, as a coach, when you’re negotiating with a client, we can break that down into twos, two sections, the people who are prospective clients, and the people who are already clients.

Kwame 7:02
So when it comes to prospective clients, we’re looking at ways to first of all, it’s a little bit of blending to the sales process and the negotiation process. So with the sales process, what we’re doing is we’re trying to generate interest for our services.

Kwame 7:15
And then after we’ve successfully generated interest, now we move into the negotiation process, because we’re, since the person’s already interested in what we have to offer, now we’re talking about the nitty gritty, what’s the deal going to look like.

Kwame 7:27
And so we’re talking about prices, the timing of it, what services are going to be included, and you want to bring as many issues as you can to the table. So you can create a customized deal for every person, because you don’t want to lose a deal over a couple 100 bucks, if you can change it around, to serve them in a way that fits their budget, while still fair to you and take your time into consideration.

Bill 7:49
Yeah, coaches often want to get the client over the line, price is often overlooked by the coach offering the services. So their service, their value, they don’t value their time, perhaps as much as they they would, or they give themselves. They give a discount very early on in the negotiation pace, they say, you know, we’re gonna get you over the line, say my fees are $200 an hour, I’m gonna charge you out at $125 an hour. What do you say to people that have found themselves giving away money in a negotiation about the cost of services?

Bill 8:34
Right, that’s huge. And what do we want to do first is we need to make sure we are well equipped with the information, we need to figure out what the real problem is. Because sometimes if we are hearing hesitation, we automatically assume that the issue is money.

Kwame 8:48
But really what they might be struggling with is something else, there’s something else that some questions that have been answered. And so a lot of times we jump to discounting our services too soon. So one of the first step in any negotiation is doing your research.

Kwame 9:02
And so I use what I call the dating method, research. And so I say I need to know as much about you as I would if I was trying to date you. And so that means doing a lot of research online social media, LinkedIn, looking at all that. And then when I get to a point where I’ve exhausted my resources that I can do by myself, then I need to ask questions, and that is asking questions is going to be the most important part of your negotiation.

Kwame 9:27
So what I do is after I get all the information that I possibly can I look for the gaps in information where what’s the information that I can only get from that person? And then I write an exhaustive list of open-ended questions to get to that, that information.

Kwame 9:43
And so during those negotiations, I’m really my goal is to keep the breakdown of conversation about 70, 30, where I’m asking questions, and they’re responding and talking about 70% of the time and I’m listening the rest of the time. And so then when I have a better understanding of their needs, I can figure out what I need to do to change the deal to better suit their needs and meet their concerns.

Kwame 10:06
Now, if it is actually money, what we want to avoid doing is conceding, giving away something for nothing. You never want to give concessions away for free. So when you have your package, you say, Okay, well, maybe $200 an hour doesn’t work for you, I can take $10 an hour off. But if I do that, you’re going to lose X amount of services, something like that. There needs to be a quid pro quo. You never want to discount for nothing.

Bill 10:36
Okay, that’s great advice. So some people might say that they’re uncomfortable with doing the background work, the research that it seems like perhaps, you know, not that they can’t do that. It seems perhaps that we’re being a little bit sneaky in the negotiation process, like, we are research and we’re finding out things about people by, you know, going online on social media, is that okay to do? Or is that a problem? Because some people are not going to be comfortable with that.

Bill 11:05
Right? I look at it this way. For me, it allows me to go deeper into conversation faster. Because if I’m asking the surface level questions that I could have figured out on my own, then really, I’m spending a lot of time which is valuable. Talking about surface-level stuff.

Kwame 11:25
When I know somebody’s deeper, before we start the conversation, it allows me to ask better questions to really get to the heart of the matter faster. So really, the way I look at it is that it’s almost flattering. If somebody does research on me beforehand. It’s flattering.

Kwame 11:40
Because instead of having to come into this conversation and explain like the basics of what I do, they would say, hey, Kwame, I see you’re a negotiation consulted, and what kind of barriers are you facing? And so it’s like, we skip the surface level stuff, and we go straight down to the heart of the matter.

Bill 11:55
Okay. I love the way that you speak, actually, you say, the heart of the matter often. And this is perfect, because the coaches that I have trained, and the coaches that listen to the podcast, are coaches that practice a method of coaching called mBraining, which is multiple brain integration techniques.

Speaking to the heart

Bill 12:18
And it takes the stance that we have an intelligence in our head, in our heart and in your gut. So you say the heart of the matter a lot. You’ve said it three times so far, and it’s beautiful. What I’m curious to know is when we’re dealing with things like negotiation, does the heart get involved? Do we have negotiations that have to occur at heart level? For example, you know, because something could be an emotional situation?

Bill 12:50
Absolutely. And this goes back down to even back into ancient times when we’re talking about the Greek rhetorician who are talking about ethos, pathos, and logos, you know, so that’s one of the sees, I know I’m talking to a fellow nerd, we’re on the same page.

Kwame 13:07
But uh, yeah, so it’s just as important as building your character. And coming up with logical arguments, you always you also need to speak to the heart. And what’s interesting, sometimes, if you can demonstrate that you can understand somebody on a visceral level?

Kwame 13:22
They will excuse you not even being able to complete a logical argument, or they excuse you from even demonstrating exactly how things are going to get done. And I think a great example is the the recent election we had in the United States, where Trump won.

Kwame 13:39
And so even people who are hardcore Republicans would say, really, Trump was very low on substance. But with his rhetoric, he was always speaking to people’s hearts, and their core concerns, their fears. And so if you were to ask somebody who voted for Trump, what exactly is he going to do?

Kwame 13:55
And how is he going to accomplish it? They will struggle because there wasn’t an actual plan put in place for the majority of these policy considerations. But they would say, I don’t care, because he’s speaking directly to my heart. And it matters.

Pathos Logos Ethos

Bill 14:09
Yeah. It’s interesting. We did follow the Trump situation very closely here in Australia. I’m not sure why I felt like we had a lot of better things to do. But nonetheless, congratulations to him. Can we go back a little bit and can you give me a bit of an insight for our listeners on Pathos, Logos, Ethos, what are they?

Bill 14:32
Absolutely. So pathos, logos and ethos. So let’s start with the order that we should do it first is in ethos. So ethos means character. And so when you are in the beginning of a conversation with somebody, what you want to do is you want to demonstrate your character and relate to them on a personal level.

Kwame 14:50
And so they can trust you that builds the trust, and then we move to logos. Logos, that’s the logical form of communication. So with your arguments they need to make sense their needs to be if you can produce proof and some substance to what you’re saying.

Kwame 15:05
And then once you’ve established those, you’ve established your credibility, your arguments make sense, then you can speak to the person you can speak to their heart, you can say, Listen, I understand the barriers that you’re facing, I’ve been through that same thing as well.

Kwame 15:19
And if we can work together, I can bring you across the finish line. And when you really try to speak to somebody in that kind of thorough and depth in a way that encompasses all three of these manners of speaking, they’re more likely to come to see things your way, because you’ve addressed all of their key issues.

Reading body language

Bill 15:43
That’s amazing. That’s great. Now also, there is another thing that happens during a negotiation. And sometimes when we’re talking to people over the phone, or even over Skype, we might not see the way they react the body. But in a face to face negotiation. How important is body language? Can we get clues from what’s happening in a conversation and how somebody is responding in the body? as to how the negotiation is going?

Bill 16:09
Yes. And Bill, the timing of this question is absolutely perfect. And I’ve been on about 20 other podcasts being interviewed, nobody has asked me that question. And I realized that body language was one of the areas where I’m weak on, I never really studied that too much.

Kwame 16:26
And so this, just this week, I bought a book written by some former CIA intelligence officers, on how to read body language in a negotiation. And it’s fascinating. And so one of the things that they say is that oftentimes, we try to read body language in general.

Kwame 16:44
And so the majority of Studies demonstrate that about 93% of communication is nonverbal. And so we think, like, Okay, I need to be paying attention to Bill’s everything, all that he’s doing.

Kwame 16:58
But what they’re saying is that paying attention to every single movement that somebody does is overwhelming, because you still need to listen to what they say. And then if you’re trying to listen to all of that their body is saying too it throws you off.

Kwame 17:11
And so when it comes to body language, when it comes to reading body language, when in reality, in relation to what you say, the first five seconds after you make a statement is going to be the most crucial, because that’s where you get body language that comes as a response to something that you said.

Kwame 17:29
And so you don’t just look at the body language that happened to you, it’s in the silo, you have to look at clusters. So if I were to ask you a question, and you don’t really like the question, I’m asking if, for instance, if I’m trying to get to your bottom line, and I see you shift a little bit shifting your body weight, I can say, Okay, that was a movement, let me ask the question in a different way.

Kwame 17:51
And if I see you, then when your response kind of touch your face, then now I can see there was a cluster, those were two movements in relation to the question that I asked. Now, that’s body language that I can use as as information. Otherwise, it’s really difficult to just look at the body in totality and come to a conclusion. So really, the key time to pay attention to body language is within the first five seconds of asking a question.

Bill 18:15
Yeah, in coaching, we have a process that we call the calibration phase. So when a client comes in, calibrate where they’re at, right, calibrate, to understand, okay, they look like this, they have this type of, you know, stress lines on their face, etc. or whatever it is, and we take an overall sort of impression of where they’re at.

Bill 18:40
And then as we talk to them, and as we coach them, and as we get them, uncovering their challenges and, and overcoming them, we should be able to notice subtle changes in the face without really paying attention. If we’ve just calibrated the first time, we might notice some changes that come up.

Bill 18:57
It sounds something similar to that way. You get to calibrate the person in the negotiation, and then from there, you get to see how they change and shift. And if they move backwards, perhaps there’s a Oh, I don’t like that information, I’m moving away from that. If they move forward, perhaps it means that they want to know more, tell me more, they might be more interested. Does that make sense?

Bill 19:20
Absolutely. You’re spot on with that. And calibration is huge. Because sometimes you might say in general, with body language, if somebody sits with their arms crossed, and their legs cross, it shows that they’re closing themselves off to you.

Kwame 19:33
But I remember specifically in one conversation, the person I was talking to it was to a conversation to see if I can get a speaking engagement. And I was making my points and he was all curled up in a little human knot. And I was like, Oh, this is not going well.

Kwame 19:50
And he said, he actually said, excuse my body language. I’m just cold. You know, it’s interesting, you know, sometimes we read it and we read it wrong. But when you get a good baseline, the calibration process, like you said, it gives us more well reasoned intel on what the person is really feeling because we know that baseline.

Bill 20:12
Yeah, a lot of body language is overdetermined. So it’s not really about what they’re doing. It’s what the changes are that we’re noticing. Right?

Kwame 20:18
Exactly. That’s the key.

Bill 20:21
Yeah. Well, that’s interesting, great conversation. So far. I’m loving it. So if a conversation is going pear-shaped, if it’s not going, well, it started off well. What can somebody do to bring it back on board?

Bill 20:40
And I’m talking about from the negotiation point of view, and also from the meeting the other person where we want to meet them so that they can come on board. So it starts great, something happens, all of a sudden, the negotiation goes, goes wrong. And now we want to bring it back, what happens? What do we do?

Bill 21:01
So two ways, there are two ways the first way this is the easiest way. And then the way I would suggest, take a break. If possible. Take a break. I think that’s an underutilized technique. It’s so simple. You just say when I say take a break, it’s like, it depends on the context.

Kwame 21:17
So if I’m in a coffee shop, and I might feel the conversation going awry, I might just say, actually, can you give me a second, let me run to the restroom, I’ll be back, you know, something, so I can gather my bearings.

Kwame 21:30
Because it’s like a runaway train sometimes if you don’t get control, it’s going to be next to impossible to get things back on track. And then the other thing, too, one of the reasons why in my negotiation preparation, I really take time to ask great questions and come up with great questions beforehand.

Kwame 21:50
Is because questions are the way that you control the conversation. And like I said before, I want them talking 70% of the time. And the beautiful thing is, I do that for two reasons. If I do that, number one, I’m getting lots of great information. Number two, they feel like they’re in control, but they’re really not. It’s me who’s in control.

Kwame 22:09
And so the way to get the conversation back on track is by asking really great questions and open-ended questions. And the difference between open-ended and closed-ended questions that closed-ended questions can be answered by a simple yes or no. And you really don’t get any information.

Kwame 22:24
But open-ended questions, questions that begin with who, what, where, when, why, how? Those are the questions that require elaboration. And so even though they’re talking, they’re talking about things that you want to talk about, and you can slowly bring them back to where you want the conversation to be.

Bill 22:40
You’ve been in negotiator for a while, I guess.

Kwame 22:46
A good amount of time.

Bill 22:47
Yeah. So tell me how well does negotiation go with the person that you love the most?

Bill 22:56
Oh, man, see, that’s an interesting one. You know, it’s interesting, you try these things at home, and they work a good amount of time they work. But I realized that professionally, I have a lot more patience than I do personally.

Kwame 23:14
I have all this information in my head. And then it just goes down the drain is like, forget it. I don’t even care anymore I’m done you know, have what you want. I surrender. You know.

Bill 23:24
A wife at home says, Kwame, we’re not negotiating this. It’s final.

Bill 23:29
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And I realized, like, you know, I’m just sometimes you just need to take that L is like, Alright, I lost this one. Whatever. It’s not, it’s sometimes it’s just not worth the emotional and investment of energy to keep on fighting.

Kwame 23:45
But it’s funny when it comes to like work. And when I’m dealing with clients and things like that, it’s almost like a game to me, when somebody makes me work harder, like, this is great, because you’re forcing me to get better. But the same thing happens at home, and I just wither, I can’t do it.

Bill 24:03
I know all the guy. That’s why I raised it. You know, I’ve been there, and most of us, most of the people listening have been there as well. So that’s okay. And it’s good to laugh about that. It’s good to understand that, you know, negotiation, the way that we’re talking about in the formal sense, is not really transferable to, you know, the home life.

Bill 24:23
You know, sure, we can negotiate some things informally, and we can negotiate pocket money, and we can negotiate all those things, but sometimes, we just gotta leave it be you know, it’s not about me all the time.

Bill 24:36
Exactly. The way my dad used to say, he’s like, you have to pick your battles. Is this the hill you want to die on? And at home, I’m not willing to die on any hills.

Negotiation outcome

Bill 24:48
You’re a very smart man. What should be the outcome of a negotiation?

Bill 24:55
That’s a great question. And it’s a great question because a lot of times People are afraid of no, a lot of times people feel like if you don’t get a deal, it’s a loss. But in reality, sometimes the worst outcome you can have is a deal that should never have been made.

Kwame 25:11
And so you want to go into your negotiations with a thorough understanding of your bottom line, like what is your cutoff point? What is valuable to you. And if you can create a deal that serves your needs, well, and the other party’s needs, excuse me, and the other party’s needs acceptably, then that’s a win, that’s a good situation.

Kwame 25:31
But a lot of times, you just need to be okay with the reality that sometimes it’s not going to work out. And so that’s why for me, one of the ways I look at negotiation is I don’t look at it as the art of deal-making, because that puts unnecessary and realistic pressure on you to make the deal.

Kwame 25:49
Because if you don’t get a deal, it’s like, well, you should have done a better job to make the deal. And the way I look at it is that negotiation is the art of deal discovery, you and the person that you’re talking to engage in this conversation, you try to find out as much as possible about each other, find out each other’s needs and pressure points and stress points.

Kwame 26:07
And see if there’s a way that you can come together to make this work. And if you can’t find that way to make it work, no harm, no foul, you tried your best the deal, there was no deal to be discovered. And then you can move on and move on with a strong relationship with the person regardless.

Bill 26:23
Yeah, and you can end the negotiation amicably rather than angrily or unappreciate each other. And just, okay, well, it didn’t work out this time. Let’s just move on.

Bill 26:35
Exactly. And I think that relationship aspect is something that people often forget, when it comes to negotiation. And so for me, there are three pillars for negotiation. The first pillar is offensive uses of negotiation, and that’s where you try to get as much as you can, that’s beneficial to you.

Kwame 26:51
The other one is defensive uses. And that’s when you use negotiation to avoid things you don’t like. So to save on expenses, and to avoid conflict, those type of things. And then the third pillar, which in my opinion, is the most important is the actions, strengthen relationships.

Kwame 27:07
And if you can work together with somebody to create a form of a strong relationship, there’s value in the relationship itself. So you always need to make sure that you keep an eye on that relationship aspect as well.

Bill 27:20
Wow, what a great way to look at negotiation as a way to enhance a relationship, even though you don’t make a deal or get a business transaction out of it. That’s amazing.

Bill 27:31
Yeah, thank you. Yeah. And it’s crazy. You know, the way that this just happened this week, I remember one time I was, I had a potential client, and I quoted my price, and she wasn’t able to afford it. But the way that we interacted, the way that we communicated with each other, we left on really great terms.

Kwame 27:47
And then just this week, she referred one of the members of her family to me, because she’s like, I didn’t work with him. But he’s a great guy. He’s a good lawyer, so go with him. And so that’s the way you want to leave your negotiations, everybody should have a good taste in their mouth afterward.

Bill 28:03
Wow. That’s amazing. Before we talked about body language, I want to briefly touch on the new negotiator, somebody who hasn’t practiced negotiating before. And now they’re conscious of it, they’re going to do it. And they might be feeling different things as they begin a negotiation.

Bill 28:24
Butterflies in the tummy, you know, tightness in the breath or something like that. What happens when somebody starts a negotiation, and they find themselves seizing up or tensing up? Or getting butterflies in the stomach? How could they proceed without that affecting how the conversation starts?

Bill 28:41
That’s a tough one. That is a tough one, I’ll answer for one in the moment. And I’m giving you some solutions to make sure that doesn’t happen. Being in a negotiation beforehand.

Kwame 28:52
And so the first thing is if, honestly, when I negotiate, I’m pretty straightforward with the way that I’m feeling and the emotions that I’m experiencing. And so if I’m really nervous, and things aren’t coming out the right way, I might just say, Listen, I recognize this is a really great opportunity for me, and I’ve got a few butterflies.

Kwame 29:12
I’m just excited to have this conversation. And the reason I’m really candid with my emotions is kind of going back to what we said about body language. Sometimes people will notice something is different about you, but they don’t know what and they’ll apply their own interpretation to it.

Kwame 29:29
And so if I’m nervous about something, somebody might interpret that as dishonesty or inauthenticity, and that’s bad. Because there needs to be some level of trust here. And so I’ll tell somebody, I’ll say Listen, you know what your, you might be picking something up.

Kwame 29:45
It’s this and this is why and so I do that even if I’m upset. I say Listen, I know this. This really isn’t (inaudible) but the situation has upset me. And so if I’m ever kind of short with you, I apologize in advance. I don’t mean anything personal by it I’m just I’m frustrated.

Kwame 30:01
And the beauty of doing that is that it almost has an inoculation effect. Because when that bad behavior comes out, they’re like, oh, Kwame’s upset, oh, Kwame’s hungry. I’m gonna let that slide. You know those types of things.

Kwame 30:16
And then as far as something you can do beforehand, one of my favorite things in that I do to help me prepare for negotiations is a process that I call rejection therapy. And so this is something that I do unrelated to like the negotiation. And so it’s a process of asking for things that I know I have no rights to get.

Kwame 30:35
So here’s an example. Here are a couple examples. Um, so I went to a coffee shop one time, and it was my birthday. So they gave me a free pastry. That was really cool. But I was with one of my mentees at the time. And so I said, Hey, he’s with me, too.

Kwame 30:48
Can he get a free pastry? He has no right to get a pastry. But they said yes, they were like, fine. And at the end, when I got my receipts, it said, miscellaneous discounts on the receipt, you know, and then later in the year, I had a coming up in a couple of weeks, I’m going to have the head, the former head coach for the Ohio State University Football Team come on the on the podcast, and he’s a big name in Ohio.

Kwame 31:13
And so the way I got it was just by cold calling his office and asking, and it works. And the rejection therapy ends up doing, doing two things that’s positive for you. The first thing is, it gets you to realize that no is not the end of the world. Because for as many yeses as I get there are twice as many nos.

Kwame 31:35
But then what happens is, I get that knowing I realized, Oh, I’m still here, that wasn’t that bad. And then on the other side, sometimes people say yes, and you get a lot, you get a lot of what you asked for.

Kwame 31:47
And so those are little ways that I practice throughout the day, you know, because negotiations are extremely stressful events. And so the more practice you get, even if it’s a low-risk scenario, the more confident you will be when the actual negotiations happen.

Bill 32:04
Yeah, you said they’re really stressful events, do they have to be?

Dealing with fear

Bill 32:08
They don’t. And I think that really depends on your conceptualization of it. And here’s an example for me, I used to be really afraid of speaking in public. That used to be one of my biggest fears, and my degrees in psychology.

Kwame 32:24
And one thing that I learned when it comes to fears is that the body has a very limited reaction, a limited amount of reactions that can have to certain stimuli. So for example, the fear response that we have the heart racing the throat getting a little bit tight, is a similar response that we would have, if somebody that we really, really liked somebody we had a crush on came and talk to us, we have that same response, but for different reasons.

Kwame 32:50
And the only difference is our conceptualization of it. And so now when I speak, when I present, when I negotiate, I still have the same physiological response beforehand, but my conceptualization is changed. And so instead of me saying, I’m feeling this way, because I’m afraid, I say, I’m feeling this way, because I’m excited because this is a really great opportunity. So the feeling never changes, but my mind does.

Bill 33:15
Yeah, that’s exciting. That’s interesting, because a lot of people they do miss interpret the signals from the body as meaning something that it’s not fear, for example, can be excitement, you know, butterflies in the stomach doesn’t have to be nervousness, it can be, you know, something amazing is about to happen.

Bill 33:32
And it’s just anticipation leading to that amazing outcome. Just like we misrepresent what other people are doing what cross hands mean. You know, perhaps that butterfly or the tightness in your throat or wherever is, you know, just something that you haven’t experienced before.

Bill 33:49
And that doesn’t necessarily make it bad. That makes it an amazing thing. I know that if the public speaking that I do from time to time, I have done exactly that. I’ve interpreted the butterflies in the stomach as excitement. And it makes it so much easier when you turn up to talk and you’re excited to talk.

Bill 34:09
Even if you start scratchy, you’re doing exactly what you said. I say stuff like, guys, well, I can’t believe this, you know, 70 people in the room that I’m talking to, you know, I’m feeling a little bit excited and nervous about this. And all of a sudden, you see the crowd just goes, you know, they they give me a break, you know?

Bill 34:27
And you get started, you get the roll on. And as you get the roll on those things go away because you’ve addressed that right at the beginning. And as a result of addressing it, just even bringing it to your awareness enables it to go away.

Bill 34:41
Absolutely. And you’re right. And one thing too, that I learned when it comes to public speaking in particular, is that everybody in the crowd is rooting for you. Nobody wants to see you go up there and flop that is awful for everybody.

Kwame 34:55
And so when I realized that really the majority of the time 90-95% times when we speak in public, everybody wants us to do well. It’s like, wow, everybody here is essentially is my friend. So this should not be that bad.

Bill 35:09
Yeah. This brings me to the next question. Next question being, can we negotiate with ourselves?

Bill 35:16
Yes, that’s the first negotiation that has to happen. And that goes along with confidence. Because if you can’t convince yourself, you can’t convince anybody else. And so that’s why I take so much time to prep. And so if I have a 10 minute conversation, I will seriously prep for about 45 minutes.

Kwame 35:33
Because it’s like, I need to know that my logical arguments are tight that I know the situation. And if I can’t convince myself of that, I have no reason being in this negotiation with the other person.

Kwame 35:44
So that is incredibly important. And sometimes that takes time. It takes time, but it’s it’s a necessary internal dialogue that we have to have, you need to believe that you can do it before you get out there and actually do it.

Bill 35:57
Yeah, I know, with public speaking, there’s an identity issue for a lot of people that don’t see themselves as public speakers, or that they have a voice that is worth listening to that their ideas are going to be interesting to other people.

Bill 36:13
So they don’t identify as a public speaker. And then when you ask them, are you a public speaker? They’d say, No. Therefore, if you’re not a public speaker, and I asked you to go and speak in front of 70 people, would you do it, they’d say, No.

Bill 36:25
But if I got them to stand in front of a mirror, and just talk to themselves as if they were talking to 75, people, knowing that those 75 people aren’t there, that begins that identity shift in the way that, you know, you can relate to yourself.

Bill 36:39
And if you can start seeing yourself as somebody who has interesting conversations, and that you can engage people, that identity starts to shift towards that. And then from yourself in the mirror, you know, you can negotiate with yourself, to talk to five people that you know, are really going to say lovely things about you, just to give you a feeling of what it’s like to be in front of a room talking to many people.

Bill 37:04
And then the negotiation go to the next level. Okay, so we’ve done 5, can we do 10. And that’s a very small way to achieve things that you want to achieve in life that are important to you that you think you need to be doing to achieve your outcome, whatever that might be.

Bill 37:20
So, negotiation, if I don’t see myself as a negotiator right now, it’s because I don’t identify as a negotiator. I’ve never done it before. And I’ve always, you know, caved, I’ve given up, I’m sorry, you have everything. I don’t want to have, you know, an argument or whatever it is that people think negotiations become. So if we can negotiate with somebody who’s just going to help us practice, is that a good way to start bringing us into that space of feeling like negotiators?

Practice is key

Bill 37:49
Absolutely practice is key. If you have somebody that you can run through a practice session with beforehand, I would encourage you to do that all the time. And so I remember when I was in law school, we had these negotiation competitions.

Kwame 38:04
So it’s, it’s where you have you and your partner, you get a set of facts, and yet you negotiate against two other people who have opposite facts. And so you’re representing the client they are and then you try to get the best deal.

Kwame 38:16
And so, with my partner, what we would do is we would just roleplay over and over and over again for hours until we felt sharp. And so it got to the point where whatever happens in the negotiation, the actual negotiation, we know, it’s not going to be as bad as the practice we just went through, because we would be really hard on each other.

Kwame 38:36
And you think about athletes, the way that they practice, they always are going through these various situations and that they’re playing a game, you know, and but we need to go through the same kind of rigor when we come to these conversations. And I think that’s, that’s one of the biggest things when it comes to preparation.

Kwame 38:53
People just go into these conversations and try to freestyle it. Success doesn’t come by accident. Yeah, success comes on purpose, you know. So for me, practice is huge. Preparation is huge.

Kwame 38:55
And that’s really what gives me the confidence to be successful. And I can tell the difference between when I’m going into a conversation, well rehearsed versus just reciting, and I get I jumped back to quantity of 5-10 years ago. It’s like, I feel that those physiological responses and I interpreted a sphere, and I’m like, Kwame you’re afraid because you’re not ready, and that’s your fault. You never want to be in that position. So always make sure you take the time to practice and prepare beforehand.

Bill 39:34
Yeah, the buck stops with you Kwame.

Kwame 39:37
Exactly.

Bill 39:39
Kwame, we’re coming to the end of the interview. Thank you so much. It’s been really interesting to hear your take on negotiations. If somebody wanted to find a little bit more about you, where would they go?

Bill 39:54
And check out my podcast negotiation for entrepreneurs. That’s a good place to start and And then also to for your audience, I have a freebie, and I’ll send you the link to so you could post it.

Kwame 40:05
It’s a link to a free negotiation guide. And so it’s a similar negotiation preparation guide that I go through before all of my negotiations. And so if you go to my website, AmericanNegotiationInstitute.com/prep, you can download that guide, and then work to prepare for your negotiations every day.

Bill 40:26
That’s excellent. Well, I’ll be sure to include those links in the notes on the program notes, so that everybody can find them easily. I really appreciate your time. Thanks so much for giving me some of your time and sharing what you know about negotiation.

Kwame 40:42
My pleasure, thanks for having me. This was a lot of fun.

Bill 40:46
If you enjoyed this episode of the show, please share it with your networks. And since Christmas is coming up, and I love Christmas gifts, and since I already have my two front teeth, I wonder if you might make my Christmas wish come true this year.

Bill 41:01
And leave the program a five-star review so that it can reach other people and help me achieve my goal of making a difference and making the planet a better place. The mBraining Show is my gift to you and I don’t really want anything in return from it other than you listening, and maybe a five-star review after every episode If possible.

Bill 41:26
If not possible, a five-star review once would do also, I would be eternally grateful if you did have a wonderful festive season no matter how you celebrate. I wish you wellness and safety and your loved ones too Merry Christmas.

Intro 41:42
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Intro 42:00
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Intro 42:20
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