117 - TikTok Star Mackenzie Barmen

What The Hell Is Michael Jamin Talking About?

On this week's episode, I have TikTok Star Mackenzie Barmen. We talk about what she has already accomplished in her very short time in LA, as well as some of the projects she has planned for the future. There is so much more so make sure you tune in.

Show Notes

Mackenzie Barmen on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mackenziebarmen/

Mackenzie Barmen on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mackenziebarmen?lang=en

Mackenzie Barmen on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAP_cFPc2fqGTe50YhOlkDg/videos

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter

Autogenerated Transcript

Mackenzie Barman:

There's a part of me that worries on some level all the time, but then there's a stronger part of me. I think that's pretty delusional in a good way, that I'm like, no, I am certain that I'm supposed to do this, and I just can't falter. I just, I'm doing,

Michael Jamin:

You're listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.

Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Well, I'll tell you what I've been talking about. If you've been listening to any number of my podcasts or by social media, I've been saying the same thing a lot. I've been saying, if you are an aspiring whatever, if you're an actor or a writer or performer, put your work out there. Just start doing it, and the more you do it, the better you get. And then my next guest is someone who did just that and is doing that, and I discovered her maybe a year or two ago, and we're going to talk, and she's big. We're going to talk to her about her journey here. Mackenzie Barman, thank you so much for coming here. Lemme tell you when I first found you, and then you'll Yes, please. Then we'll tell you were doing a bit, it was a piece on you were reciting nursery rhymes, and you playing two characters.

You generally will talk about this, but you generally do two characters have, and you're both, and usually it's kind of a sweet and naive version of you. And then there's kind of a meaner more, not sinister, but cynical. And I guess she puts you in your place. She's a little, and she wants up making you cry a lot. And so the sweet one was talking about nursery rhyme, and the other one was telling you, you're so naive, you have no idea what these nursery rhymes are about. And so that blew up and that's how I found you, and it was really funny. I love

Mackenzie Barman:

It. Thank you.

Michael Jamin:

Well, tell me, what is this? So you're huge on TikTok, you have almost 3 million followers, which is

Mackenzie Barman:

Almost

Michael Jamin:

Huge. I've written for shows that haven't been seen by anywhere near 3 million people. So you have a giant following, but tell me, so why did you start doing this?

Mackenzie Barman:

Well, I was an actor in the pandemic, and I didn't really know what to do with myself. And so everyone was on TikTok for fun. That was when TikTok was really blowing up, and I kind of just decided to start making videos and then not taking it seriously at all. But then I was like, well, it gives me a kind of a platform. And no one was really using it like that yet. But I started to see some sketches pop up and I was like, huh, or viral videos, whatever. And then I ended up just at random seeing somebody write about a nursery rhyme in a Facebook status. And I was still using Facebook, which I don't, and I was like, oh. And I learned in that moment what that nursery rhyme meant. So I just on a whim made that first

Michael Jamin:

Video. So that was one of your first videos?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, it was one. I did a whole series of those ones. So I did it and I just kind of improvised it. And the next morning I woke up and it had gone kind of viral, and so I made another one, and then I made another one and they kind of just blew up. And so, yeah, it was kind of random.

Michael Jamin:

But your intention, it was boredom or was it, you said you wanted to have a platform. What was your goal?

Mackenzie Barman:

Well, it was a little bit out of boredom, but it was more so like, well, let me put myself out there. And I used to go to a lot of casting director workshops and when I lived in New York City, and they would always say the same thing when YouTube was really big, make your own web series, put yourself out there, all that stuff. And so that's always been in the back of my mind, and I've always kind of considered myself a multihyphenate. I also shoot and direct and all that stuff, so I was like, I need to do that. So that's why I've always kind of focused on acting, being the primary thing in my videos. Let's get to that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I was going to say, it's really smart. You show a range. I mean, you have, like I said, the sweet side, and then the other side is, and sometimes you play well, you're always playing characters, but to me it's smart. You're showing your range as an actor.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

What do your reps have to say about all this?

Mackenzie Barman:

They love it. I actually got my managers through TikTok, they found me and oh my

Michael Jamin:

God, really?

Mackenzie Barman:

I had already had voiceover representation through my agency, but I didn't have a manager or anything. And I met my manager, Rachel. I loved her right away. And they love it, and they love the content and that it's acting first and the series and all that.

Michael Jamin:

So they give you any feedback or No, they just like, we love it.

Mackenzie Barman:

No, not really. They just let me roll with it. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting. And then what other opportunities have come from all this?

Mackenzie Barman:

Gosh, well, one of the coolest things is the relationships that I've built with other creators, especially actor creators. And you just kind of know when you vibe with some people or when I watch certain people, I'm like, I know our brains work the same way. So I seek those people out to become, I love getting to know the people that I admire. It's cool to meet people talent first, and then it's doing a play with somebody. I

Michael Jamin:

Know you collaborate with people sometimes. I've seen some of those videos you've done.

Mackenzie Barman:

I've done a couple. I'm going to be doing more now that I'm in LA and with a lot more people. But that's been a really cool thing that's come from this. Did

Michael Jamin:

You start this in New York your first three years? Yeah. Oh, really?

Mackenzie Barman:

Okay. Yeah, I just moved to LA a few weeks ago. I was in New York

Michael Jamin:

City. Oh, when you said you changed your apartments, I assumed you were moved, okay. From in la, but you're Oh, you're, well, welcome to la. Okay. Thank you. Wow, this is a big adjustment for you. So what prompted you to move to LA then?

Mackenzie Barman:

Well, my managers are out here, and since TikTok, I've really, it's funny. I was always kind of like, I wanted to really be such a chameleon and not hone in on any one thing. I didn't want to just do comedy. I didn't want to just do drama. But now with TikTok, it's really pushed me more into comedy, and I've found that I really do love it. So out here, there's so many comedy opportunities, and I'm going to be doing part of a live show on December 10th, and just being, I just needed to be out here.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. So how did you get, you've only been here for three minutes, so how did you get this live show already?

Mackenzie Barman:

Through a friend of mine, actually, through social media. Someone you, oh

Michael Jamin:

My God, so smart. I'm always yelling at people. They're like, do I have to be in la? I'm like, well, this is where everyone is. I mean, why would you know? What were you doing? Were you doing a lot of theater in New York?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, so I did a lot of regional theater. I did an off-Broadway musical, and then when the pandemic happened, I was really trying to shift into more TV and film work. I really wanted to be on tv. I still do. That's really my big focus is to be on tv, be in movies. But I was kind of transitioning and doing the casting director workshops and doing all those things, and then the pandemic hit. But yeah, mostly theater. I'm a theater girl

Michael Jamin:

Now. Did you study, where have you studied? Did you study in college? Where did, yeah,

Mackenzie Barman:

I went to a SUNY school and I loved it. I went to SUNY Potsdam in upstate New York, and I studied theater and theater education. I didn't really start doing plays until high school and in high school. So

Michael Jamin:

You're from New York?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I'm from New York. From

Michael Jamin:

New York, okay.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, born and raised, upstate New York, near Albany. And then, yeah, I moved down to the city to be an actor and do all that. Right.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. You've only been here three weeks and so much has already happened for you already.

Mackenzie Barman:

What do you think? Yeah, I'm trying.

Michael Jamin:

What do you think It's a culture shock. What do you think?

Mackenzie Barman:

Right now, I'm in my lust for life extrovert phase where I'm like, because a homebody pretty much, I'm an extroverted homebody, so I like to be home a lot. But right now I'm just trying to be out a lot, meet people that I've, and just kind of be really social,

Michael Jamin:

Been amazing. How did you get into play? Okay, you moved here. Did you stay with a friend when you found your, how did, because I'm telling people come out. How did you do it? How did

Mackenzie Barman:

It was a pain? So I visited last August, and I stayed with one of my managers. Actually, I crashed at her place. I went a couple different places, but she's the best. I love her. And they're in the West Hollywood area, so it's really the only place I know. So that's where I am now. I'm in West Hollywood. And then I looked at a couple apartments when I was here, but I really didn't know where I was. I kind of did, but I don't really know. And then, so I just, Zillow and Trulia, and I ended up finding this apartment on Trulia, and I had a couple of friends come look at it and FaceTime me,

Michael Jamin:

And it was good enough.

Mackenzie Barman:

I was like,

Michael Jamin:

And then Did you drive here? You

Mackenzie Barman:

Flew here? I drove,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. That's how you do it. Did your car. Wow. Now tell me, when you start posting, these are thought out, these videos you make, how much time do you spend a day making, and how many times do you post a day?

Mackenzie Barman:

It's really funny. I usually post once a day at most. I really should try to post once a day at least. It's usually every two or three days. Oh, really? Yeah. But I've been kind of busy, but it was once a day when I was doing the nursery rhymes, but I kind of got a little burned out, I think.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you do get burned out. It's

Mackenzie Barman:

A lot. It's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah. But I don't write anything beforehand. I improvise everything, but I kind of write it in my head as I go, and I have a loose idea going into it of if it was a nursery rhyme or something, I would have to research and have the facts ready. I would do that research beforehand and then kind of reference it as I improvised it. But for the character stuff, it's all kind of, they kind of just take over. I take a backseat,

Michael Jamin:

But you must edit some stuff out, or no, is everything what you say goes in?

Mackenzie Barman:

Sometimes if I say something and then I'm like, even if it's improvised, I'm like, huh, you know what? I think I want to tweak that and put the intonation somewhere else, or put a micro look or an eyebrow raise kind of somewhere else. I'll redo it. But most of the time it's my first take, honestly.

Michael Jamin:

So, okay. I was going to ask you where you're editing it because you're like this, you're holding it, and you do your one line, and then you turn around and do the other line, and then

Mackenzie Barman:

I swap. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

So you're not even editing it?

Mackenzie Barman:

No, because I shoot in the app, unless it's Snapchat filters, which a couple of my characters are Snapchat filters, in which case I'll film them. It used to be that if I was doing the Snapchat filters, I would just shoot one character as a monologue and then post that. But then with my Danny and Bab series, this new, these characters, I have

Michael Jamin:

The ugly babies that you post.

Mackenzie Barman:

They're adults. Okay. I just, I'll pull up his filter, shoot his line, save the video, switch the filter, do her response.

Michael Jamin:

I'm surprised you can't even remember what you just said. You know what I'm saying? With the last character just said,

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I don't know. It's just kind of alive in that moment. But

Michael Jamin:

Are you thinking in advance, okay, this is going to do well, or this is just what I want to do today? Do you care?

Mackenzie Barman:

I do care only because I kind of have to care. I feel like it influences so much. Now your numbers and all that stuff, but I also care because I want people to like it. I want people to genuinely have a response to it that's a little deeper maybe than normal. On TikTok scrolling, which I do get a lot. I'll get people being like, wait, this is actually, so people

Michael Jamin:

Are, well, your fans really loved you. I've read some of these comments, and what surprises me is that you interact with pretty much everyone.

Mackenzie Barman:

I try. I try and they're smart. Okay.

Michael Jamin:

Why do you try?

Mackenzie Barman:

Because it, it's weird. It's like this weird, I don't really ever go to anyone's profile or whatever, but I can almost hear the comment in my head, and it almost in that brief moment feels like a conversation's actively happening. So I'm bantering with this person, or I don't know. It's just, it's fun to be engaging. And I've had people respond when I do engage and they're like, oh my God, I can't believe you applied. And that to me is just so lovely.

Michael Jamin:

It is lovely, but it's so much work on your part.

Mackenzie Barman:

I know, but I sit and scroll a lot. So it's like part of the package. It's like part of producing the video almost is then the engagement after. And I don't do it as much as I used to, but I do. It depends on what mood I'm in.

Michael Jamin:

I wonder though. I wonder what you're supposed to do when I started, are you supposed to, I'm not even sure when I get, my page is very different from yours. They have questions for me. They want, as opposed to you. I think they're like your fans, they just want to, and so they're

Mackenzie Barman:

Just making a commentary on it

Michael Jamin:

Or something. Well, they really like your show. They like what? You're the fans. And so I just don't know what the rules are. I don't know if you're supposed to

Mackenzie Barman:

Interact yourself. I dunno. And it depends. If somebody does leave a nasty comment or say something mean, which is oddly really rare, don't come from me guys. Don't start. But it's rare. They're pretty good, my, because some people get it bad for some reason, and I don't really get that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, go on. What do you do?

Mackenzie Barman:

Wait, I've lost my train of thought. What

Michael Jamin:

Was it? You said? Some people come after you and they're mean,

Mackenzie Barman:

And either I'll completely ignore them or I'll delete it. If it's a needle in a haystack and it's just something mean, I'll delete it. But sometimes I'll respond with sarcasm or I'll make a sarcastic response video, and then it makes it funny. So then it's like, oh, this is actually a joyful experience. But most of the time I'll just ignore them if I do get them.

Michael Jamin:

And you don't block 'em, you just ignore them?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. I don't really block anybody unless they're trying to impersonate me, but

Michael Jamin:

Even, yeah. Wow. You don't even block the haters.

Mackenzie Barman:

Not usually. There's been maybe two or three.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, wow. I get more than you do I get more than haters than you?

Mackenzie Barman:

They don't really come for me. It's weird. I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. But now you're putting yourself out there. It's pretty vulnerable. I mean, it may hit, it may not. It may be funny. It may not be. I mean, was that hard at the beginning for you to do that?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I think the nursery rhyme videos did so well. Those were just one of those weird viral things where every video was getting a million plus and it was every day. It was just crazy. And now it ebbs and flows so much with TikTok. And now I have more normal numbers, I think. But I definitely do get a little anxious about that. Sometimes I'm like, oh gosh, I thought this video would do better. Or I'll post something out of my norm and then I wake up and it's done really well, and I'm like, oh, and then I'll try to do that again, and then it doesn't do as well. So it's like a flash in the pan thing.

Michael Jamin:

Do you share it as well on Instagram? I mean, what do you

Mackenzie Barman:

I do, yeah. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

Immediately. Same content. You just put it up there.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Do you put it anywhere else?

Mackenzie Barman:

Not really. I've put a couple on YouTube. I really need to start utilizing the YouTube shorts because I think where it's at and Snapchat, I need to start utilizing more. I think they're up and coming. They're coming back. You think

Michael Jamin:

So?

Mackenzie Barman:

They're coming back? I think so.

Michael Jamin:

How many hours a day or minutes a day do you spend on this?

Mackenzie Barman:

I would say on average, I probably spend an hour on a video.

Michael Jamin:

Really? Okay. It's not nothing. It's not nothing.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. It's not nothing. But it's not like I know some people put in and you can tell some of these videos are gorgeous and the editing is, but since it's just me, it's also a lot harder for me to film outside of my hand, setting up the tripod moving and just a lot more to do. So it's just easier for me to

Michael Jamin:

Do. Do you have a list of ideas that you keep? And are you running out of ideas?

Mackenzie Barman:

I always feel like I'm running out of ideas. I always think if a video, especially if a video does really well, I'm like, I'm never going to do this well ever again. But I don't usually keep a list of ideas. Sometimes I'll jot down, I have a bunch of notes, like separate note app ideas. But a lot of the times it's just, if I have the thought, I'll just record it. That's why a lot of the times I look kind of like shit in my videos a little bit, because I film them. Usually my ideas come right in the morning, and so I'll just wake up and film an idea, and then it's, before I've even brushed my teeth or anything, I'm just gross. But it's when, and I just do it.

Michael Jamin:

And you put it up. It's so interesting. I don't know. Is there a fear? Is there any fear associated? It seems like you don't have any fear at all about this.

Mackenzie Barman:

I feel like I do. I feel there's a constant anxiety of one. I have imposter syndrome pretty intensely.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. And who do you think you are? Do you, you're not, is that

Mackenzie Barman:

I don't come from an industry family or any kind of connections like that. So I'm always like, who am I?

Michael Jamin:

But they have imposter syndrome too, because their mother and father was, they're famous. So I think they have bigger imposter syndrome than you do. You're

Mackenzie Barman:

Self made. I'm learning that. I'm learning everyone deals. There was a great Viola Davis interview where she talked about imposter syndrome, and it was great to hear that.

Michael Jamin:

What did she say?

Mackenzie Barman:

Just that it never goes away and that she was doing, oh gosh, what was the movie she did with Denzel Washington?

Michael Jamin:

Oh, was it Fences?

Mackenzie Barman:

Fences? Yeah. I think it was about fences. And she was talking about she was playing that part and was like, who am I to do this? It may have been that, but she was just talking about that, and I was like, that's really refreshing, because I think I look through rose colored glasses at these celebs sometimes, and I'm like, oh my God. They're so confident. But we're always seeing the best take, and we're always getting, especially as you get more involved in the industry, you start to see that it's all kind of smoke and mirrors. You just have to fake it.

Michael Jamin:

I read an article yesterday about Brian May from Queen. He said he still has some imposter syndrome, and he's Sir Brian May, and he's like, why isn't they call me, sir?

Mackenzie Barman:

It's wild. Yeah, it's wild. But that there is fear there. There is that fear of the imposter syndrome of like, oh my gosh, who am I? And it's silly. It's silly. And I know that, but

Michael Jamin:

Are you monetizing TikTok or no? Yeah. You are? Yeah. In the creator fund?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. So they have the creator beta program or program beta, whatever it's called. Great. Is

Michael Jamin:

That effective use?

Mackenzie Barman:

I dunno, maybe, but I don't dunno. Interesting. It's nice because you can only monetize on content over a minute, and most of my content is over a minute, so it really was a good thing for me. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

You'd have to change anything.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

But you have to have a personal account, not a business account. Right? Isn't

Mackenzie Barman:

That what you maybe? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

Now, in your reps, as I was checking out some of your videos, you are, it's funny that they said this, but they like that you're in character. They like that you're acting. And I was curious, why don't you, or have you thought of, this is me today. I'm not going to act today. This is me. This is, I'm want to table my life. You're not doing that though.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, no. I've done a couple of videos like that. I've probably done 10 or 12, maybe 20. I don't even know how many I have on my page, but where it's me doing something. But I feel like sometimes it feels like I'm always in a bit, and I don't know if that's being an actor or if it's my own neuroses, but if I am in front of a camera, it's kind of hard for me to be just me, unless I'm doing a podcast and talking to somebody. But if it's me looking at myself on video, I'm always going to be like, ha.

Michael Jamin:

It's

Mackenzie Barman:

Difficult for me sometimes. But I do think about that because there is a part of me that really wants to be more like, wait, okay, so here I am as a person. Get ready with me. As I tell you this story, I thought about doing more of those just because it is fun to do that.

Michael Jamin:

Right? But the

Mackenzie Barman:

Math is always on. I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

That's more of a you thing. It's so interesting. I wonder, I was going to ask if you feel almost trapped in this persona that you are now?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. Yes and no. No, probably not. I don't think so. I think I play such a variety of characters on my TikTok.

Michael Jamin:

Except for yourself. You play characters except

Mackenzie Barman:

For you. It's never really me. Definitely the closest one to me. And I think I'm pretty split right down the middle between the dark me and the innocent me in the nursery rhyme videos. And that dynamic is, in a lot of the videos, there's always me and me and whoever else, Chelsea or whoever. But I'm definitely split right in the middle. But if I had to lean, I would definitely lean toward the happy, bubbly me. That's probably the closest to me in any of my videos.

Michael Jamin:

But not that you should, I'm just pointing out you're not sharing anything really personal or intimate about yourself or

Mackenzie Barman:

No, no. In a weird way, I think that it's like, I don't know. There's a part of me that likes, there admires those celebs that you really don't know too much about Florence Pugh or Jennifer Lawrence. They give you glimpses into their life, their personal life. But there always is this level of mystique to them. And not that I'm trying to be mysterious, but I do think that it in the long run might serve me better as an actor to be more private than to be so human. I don't know. Well,

Michael Jamin:

It's interesting because it's also like you must know Elise Meyers, because I mean, she's big, but you're up there. I mean, you're not far behind her, and she's more, and it seems like she's doing what she wants to do, but she's more actor and she's more, I guess, personality.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. Yeah. I love Elise, and I don't know her, but I love her because she's so just herself. She might have self-doubt, whatever. I have no idea. Imposter syndrome and stuff, but she appears and she does speak on things, her iss, and she's just so honest about it. And I do love that. I don't know. I just can't do it.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Well, you're being authentic or I

Mackenzie Barman:

Can, but yeah, I don't know. It's just tricky. There is that kind of want to keep this, but who is Mackenzie thing

Michael Jamin:

And what surprising opportunities have come from this or partnerships or relationships or whatever.

Mackenzie Barman:

I'm trying to think. Besides auditions and stuff.

Michael Jamin:

So you've gotten direct auditions from this? I

Mackenzie Barman:

Have.

Michael Jamin:

How did that work?

Mackenzie Barman:

Well, a lot of the times I'll go through my reps and then my reps will reach out to me, say, oh, you've been actually personally requested for this.

Michael Jamin:

That's a big deal.

Mackenzie Barman:

It really is. And I've gotten some callback. I've gotten, most of the time, if I audition for projects like that, I'll get a call back and then go whatever, and then it doesn't happen or whatever for whatever reason. But it's happened, yeah, a few times. But a lot of the time too, I don't know. I really don't know how much, because I get auditions through my agents, a normal actor would. So I don't really know on the back end of it how much they're like, oh, here's her video. I don't really know.

Michael Jamin:

But do your reps try to sell you like, Hey, she's got 3 million followers on, because that would be good to help sell the show when you book it or whatever.

Mackenzie Barman:

Oh, I think so. Yeah. I think that's definitely a leverage point. Working on treatments and stuff. There is work that I want to put out and produce and whatever, and I do think that helps and is a big aspect of

Michael Jamin:

It. So is that on your resume, like your follower account on your acting resume or no?

Mackenzie Barman:

I don't dunno. Actually. It might

Michael Jamin:

Be it. Should it be right? Shouldn't it be?

Mackenzie Barman:

I think in today's world, yeah, I think it probably should. It probably is. And it probably needs to be updated, actually, now that I'm thinking about it. But yeah, I think it is on there.

Michael Jamin:

One thing you don't do, I don't think you do, is sell merch.

Mackenzie Barman:

No, I did one drop and I had a bad experience.

Michael Jamin:

What happened

Mackenzie Barman:

With doing it? I think my problem is I am not a salesy person. And when I was trying to sell or advertise my merch, those videos did not do well and not a of lot of eyes saw them because the people who would typically see my content, it was so out of the realm of what their algorithm would be that it didn't pop up for 'em and it just didn't do well. And I was like, you know what? And I didn't like working with, so if I think if I did, I would just do it myself.

Michael Jamin:

Wait, weren't you doing print on demand? How is it?

Mackenzie Barman:

I had worked with a merch company. I don't even remember the name of the company actually, but I had worked with a merch company and it was just a quick drop. I think typically if it's a first time, they'll do a limited drop to see how it does and then move

Michael Jamin:

On. You work with the merch company. Why don't you just go to some place that print on demand? I have five T-shirts if you want to make 'em one at a time.

Mackenzie Barman:

Well, it was kind of near when I was kind first starting out, and it's one of those things where you kind learn as you go approached. They had reached out and they said, Hey, we think McKenzie would be great. And they'd worked with other people. I think that's how it went down, or no, no, that's not true. I think it was my idea to make merch. And then I had, they were recommended because they had worked with some other great people and were really successful. So I think it was just my particular launch didn't do.

Michael Jamin:

Didn't do well.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael. If you like my content and I know you do listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michae jamin.com. And now back to what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about.

What about brand deals? Are you working with people with companies? Yeah.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. I've done some brand deals, which are so fun. I want to do more of them because they're just fun. It kind of gives me a, because a lot of the times there's no guiding light in my videos. It's just what's ever in my head. So when I have a brand to work with, it's fun. I can work around that.

Michael Jamin:

Did you hook up onto the backend of TikTok, or, I don't even know they hook you up, or no.

Mackenzie Barman:

Well, I think a little bit. I'm so bad. I don't really know all the business backend things of TikTok. I've seen some ads and stuff you can apply to be a part of this ad or something, but the pay is really low sometimes, or it's like a share a revenue share system, and I just don't want to be bothered with that. So these ones, they'll come through my management or my agents and be like, really? Hey, they want to work with me. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

But do you have special agents, social media agents, or No, just your acting agents?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. At my agency, they have a department for everything. So I'm working with an agent there. Yeah. Oh,

Michael Jamin:

Wow. So interesting.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I'm still learning too. It really is a business. And you'd kind of go to theater school and you're like, okay, yeah, sure, it's a business, but then you're in the world and you're like, oh, this is a business.

Michael Jamin:

Alright, so is this your primary income or no?

Mackenzie Barman:

No, kind of. So I do a lot of things. So I also run a video production company. You do? It's very small, but it's called Real You, and it's a demo reel production company for actors. So basically, yes, I work with actors. I was an actor who had a MISHMOSHED demo reel of all these different student films, or you just wouldn't get the footage. So it was always a hassle if you didn't have stuff to put a reel together. And so I basically sit with actors, figure out their branding, their type, whatever, and then write them scenes and then film them. But professionally, I have a real camera and all that good stuff.

Michael Jamin:

And how do they find you? These people

Mackenzie Barman:

Through my website or there's a business website and stuff. And it's funny because all of the SEO is for New York, and so I need to figure out a way to make everyone know that we're in LA now. So I do that and I do voiceover, so I do commercial and animation. Well, nothing animation yet. I audition a lot, but I'm hoping to book something soon. But a lot of commercial work and radio stuff, so I just have a lot of,

Michael Jamin:

But it seems very smart what you're doing. You're also working with, you're meeting actors, you're working with actors, you're making contacts, and you're getting paid for it out here. It's

Mackenzie Barman:

Making me a better writer, a better director, a better actor, because I also edit the scenes. Each scene is about a couple minutes long, and so I know when I'm directing them and shooting it, oh, this was helpful in the editing process, or, oh, this was actually difficult.

Michael Jamin:

So it's interesting though that you write stuff for them, but you don't write for yourself. You just impro yourself.

Mackenzie Barman:

I do write some stuff. My tiktoks, I don't write for some reason. I really should maybe try to sit and write something. I think I just write backwards when I'm doing that. But when I'm writing treatments, we're working on TV stuff, then I'll sit and write if it's because a lot of the stuff that I write is for me, but it's also for other people.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Yeah. It's so interesting. Like I said, I thought what you're doing was so smart because you're really showcasing your writing, you're showcasing your acting, and you're, your range, your acting range by playing all these different characters. It just seems like that's exactly what you should be doing. Yeah.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. I'm really trying to build a brand there. And it's nice because it kind of acts like a resume or a reel. I'm like, just go watch my tiktoks and you can see, you can see what I'm all about.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. And what about the partnerships, the other actors that you're working with? Tell me a little bit about what that had led to

Mackenzie Barman:

The actors that I shoot for

Michael Jamin:

Or that you shoot with or that you collaborate with.

Mackenzie Barman:

Oh, man. Well, I've only collaborated with a couple people. My friend's Taylor and James, who are content creators, and they're both actors. They're amazing. They live in la. I did a video with them, and I actually shot this morning with Laura Clary. Do you know Laura Clary? She's great. She's so funny. She's like an internet queen. And so when I'm shooting with them, I love working with other people, a theater person. So it's in my soul to have tangible people with me. But most of the time I'm alone. So when I'm working with another actor, it's just the best, especially when I'm just bantering freely with them or, because Laura, for instance, she wrote a script for us, and when I clagged with Taylor and James, we kind of improvised it, had an idea of what it was going to be. It was like a curb situation. We had the bones, but Laura wrote it, and then we kind of improvised on the fly. It was great. I loved it.

Michael Jamin:

And they're pretty much want what you want. They want to get more traditional acting on TV and film.

Mackenzie Barman:

I think so, yeah. Well, I know that some of them do. Laura's already established and stuff, but my client actors, they're all either working actors who want to update their reel or want to add a very specific, they need a detective scene, or they need this specific type of scene. They'll come to me. Some of them I've become really good friends with just because I'm like, oh, I love you.

Michael Jamin:

I mean, you've only been in LA three weeks. Are you going to get involved in the theater scene or the improv scene, or what are you going to do?

Mackenzie Barman:

So I really want to get into the comedy scene of the character shows and a little bit of standup. I'm going to kind of play on the 10th. I'm going to have a five minute set and this show. So I think I'm just going to totally improvise it and just see what happens. This is my first show. So who caress

Michael Jamin:

And where is that going to be?

Mackenzie Barman:

That is going to be, oh, I don't know where it's going to be. Actually, I don't,

Michael Jamin:

By the time this airs, it'll be too late. But I'm just curious as to,

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I don't know. It's called One Star Review. It's like a comedy showcase.

Michael Jamin:

It's amazing how quickly you jumped into it, honestly, you jumped into it. I don't,

Mackenzie Barman:

I always feel like I'm not doing enough. I always feel like I need to be doing, but I probably am fine.

Michael Jamin:

It's only been three weeks. Yeah, I, but it seems like, I don't know. I admire you because you're not worried about figuring out. You're just doing it. It'll fall into place. And I think a lot of people are afraid to try and to, yeah,

Mackenzie Barman:

I think that I'm definitely always a little bit afraid. There's always a part of me that is like, oh my gosh, what if I run out of money? What if I don't? I don't really have anyone really to fall back on in that way, any connection. I just don't have, there's no alternative for me.

Michael Jamin:

But you didn't in New York either. I mean your family, but there are upstate New York,

Mackenzie Barman:

And it's just really tricky. And I think that there's a part of me that worries on some level all the time, but then there's a stronger part of me. I think that's pretty delusional in a good way, that I'm like, no, I'm certain that I'm supposed to do this, and I just can't falter. This is what I'm doing.

Michael Jamin:

When you mean do this, what do you mean? Do what?

Mackenzie Barman:

Just be an actor and be in this industry. I've always felt that way about myself, and it's weird. It's a weird just knowing, and I don't want to come off pretentious at all about it. I'm not saying, oh my God, I'm so good. It's more of just like a, no, I know this is what I have to do. It's weird.

Michael Jamin:

But I'm wondering if you, because you got a giant following. I mean, and it's weird. On TikTok, you have 3 million fans, but on any given day a hundred makes, it doesn't mean 3 million going to see your work. The algorithm is so weird. But I wonder if you have any bigger plans from this or from, what are they then, other than getting cast and having someone else? What else?

Mackenzie Barman:

No, so really, I really, truly, I think that I need to create the vehicle for myself. And I think a lot of people do that and need to do that. I don't think people just, it's rare that you're just discovered or someone's like you. I'm going to cast you. It's just so rare. And so I am definitely being proactive with writing and stuff, and I've written a pilot. I have a treatment for that pilot, and that's the clearest idea I have. I'm also writing a one woman show at the moment, like a stage show. Great. I'm in the early planning stages, early as is. I just had this idea two days ago of a monthly kind of mackenzie and Friends comedy show.

Michael Jamin:

What

Mackenzie Barman:

Kind of show? I think I want it just to be a variety show of whatever the comedians want to do.

Michael Jamin:

And it'll be a stage show.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, stage show. And I would just host it. But also, I have treatments that I'm working on for TV series and movies, and so I'm flushing those out, getting everything in order. I really, really want to pitch in 2024 and be ready for that. And I also want to write,

It's something, excuse me, that I kind of recently, I think I always have liked that part of the process, but I think in my mind, I always thought to be a writer, you have to sit down and write, there's only one way to do it, and this is how you have to do it. But I'm learning that it's just not that way. I think David Mamet, he paces and he talks out loud before he ever sits down to write. And so I did. I host a podcast that I'm bringing back in January that I had Cola Cola on, and I love them. And I was talking to them and I was saying that, oh, I'm not a writer. And they were like, no, you just do it backwards. And they write on TV shows and all that. And it really changed. They had an effect on me when they said that because it really changed.

Michael Jamin:

So what is your intention with the podcast then? You're busy. Well, the

Mackenzie Barman:

Podcast. I know, I'm trying, I'm so the podcast, it's called Bullshittery. It had one season, but I did it on TikTok Live, and I did not like that format at all. I thought it would be fun and experimental, and it just felt like a TikTok Live and not an actual podcast. So I'm doing it now in person in January, now that I'm here, and it's like an interview-based podcast, but it's very loose structure and just chatting with different people that are kind of in the industry, our comedians, and just a loy sheet of shit.

Michael Jamin:

You're going to rent a studio for that?

Mackenzie Barman:

I'm going to do it in my apartment. In

Michael Jamin:

Your apartment? Yeah. Very good. So you got to get another microphone. Is that what you're going to do? I got to

Mackenzie Barman:

Get another mic.

Michael Jamin:

And you got to edit it though.

Mackenzie Barman:

And I got to edit it. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

That's work too.

Mackenzie Barman:

I know, I know. And TikTok live was easy because the sound and the video were just there. I really didn't have to edit that. But this I will, because I'm going to up the quality a little bit. I'm going to use a proper camera and do it. Do it right.

Michael Jamin:

You can need a couple cameras. You probably, you want two cameras and maybe a master. Right.

Mackenzie Barman:

I was thinking that of either doing one and just keeping it in a two shot the whole time, which some people do. But also doing the single cam on each side. I don't know yet. I don't know yet. I'm open to suggestions if you have any. Oh,

Michael Jamin:

I don't know. There are studios that you can go and rent it out and they'll do the whole thing, but you pay by the hour.

Mackenzie Barman:

I know. I, I did that once in la. It was actually a great experience. I love doing it, but I'd rather, because I don't have any sponsors yet. Once I get sponsors, then I can kind of up my,

Michael Jamin:

I think you need around 10,000 downloads to get meaningful sponsors. I think I

Mackenzie Barman:

So, I think so. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

You're probably not there yet, but you will be. Don't

Mackenzie Barman:

Think. But I'm also a terrible marketer, so when I was doing the podcast before, I posted a couple of videos and I was like, this just is not me. And I need to get past that. I need to just sell my stuff, but I feel guilty.

Michael Jamin:

But I bet you people don't even know. I mean, people don't, you've got a giant following. They may not be aware of it. You don't have to market it. You say, oh, by the way, new episode tomorrow. I have

Mackenzie Barman:

Some, no, I know. I really just need to do the clips, the podcast clips.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. You'll figure it out.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I'll figure it out. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

You will. I mean, you absolutely will. And maybe you'll do characters talking about your podcast.

Mackenzie Barman:

I know. I do want to do that. I want to do bits. If I have someone to banter with and go into character with, I'll definitely do that. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

It's amazing how when I moved to la, I was young. I didn't have any of this shit that you got going on. I didn't even occur. I don't know. I wasn't as extroverted and as, I don't think, as confident as you are. So yeah, you're going places.

Mackenzie Barman:

I'm trying. I really am trying. Well, I know where I have to end up, so I know that I need to get in there.

Michael Jamin:

And when you say, and okay, you want to be on tv, you want to be, the problem is not many sitcoms anymore.

Mackenzie Barman:

I know. Well, I really, I am more of a streaming series girl. My ideal dream seriously would be to be a series regular on an hour long drama, drama d kind of a show that would be like,

Michael Jamin:

Tell me what show that you absolutely love that you wish you could be part of

Mackenzie Barman:

Something,

Michael Jamin:

And it doesn't have to be on the air anymore. So

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, there's a couple there, obviously. Huh? Well, I loved Big Little Lies. I love an ensemble like that. The White Lotus. If I could be on the White Lotus, that would be the, honestly, above all, that would be the show I would want to be on right now.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. Okay.

Mackenzie Barman:

Succession would've been one that I would've wanted to be on. It has that snarky, realistic element to it that I love. But I also love shows like Search Party or The Comeback. I want to do a mockumentary. I want to play a version of myself. Right. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

I don't, well, you can do a series on TikTok. Just bang something out.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

I don't know. You already are. You kind of already are.

Mackenzie Barman:

I kind of already am. And I do try to sprinkle in dramatic elements too sometimes. And I don't know, it's funny. I like to evoke weird reactions from people. I'm laughing, but I'm also upset. I making people feel like that.

Michael Jamin:

I wonder, I think you're going to get to the point, I don't know, maybe you already are, where your reps, your agent manager, whatever, introduce new clients to you as to spring help springboard them. You really have a big platform. Has that coming? Has that happened yet?

Mackenzie Barman:

No, not yet. I don't know. It's so hard now because it's so forward facing too. I feel like there are some people that just do so well with the pop culture element of being present and being up to date with pop culture, I think is so huge. And I don't really touch upon that too, too much. So there's that small aspect I think that's keeping me from going even bigger. You know what I mean?

Michael Jamin:

Well, you did a piece where you kind of made fun of Congress when they were doing the TikTok here. Yes.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. I'll mess around with it sometimes if I see a good opportunity and I'll do it.

Michael Jamin:

But you think you need to be more topical?

Mackenzie Barman:

I think from what I see, and this might just be because we all have different worlds now too, which is another thing from my world, it seems like the people that do really well and that become kind of more forward facing are people who lean into pop culture and things that are really trending in that moment. And I feel like I maybe just don't do that enough. Not that it's a bad thing. It's almost intentional maybe. But

Michael Jamin:

Are you studying people wondering, are you trying to emulate other creators? Is that what you mean?

Mackenzie Barman:

No, I don't think I'm trying to emulate any other creators. I honestly think my biggest influences come from people outside of TikTok.

Michael Jamin:

Who are they then? Who are your influences?

Mackenzie Barman:

Like Lisa Kudrow, Tony Collette, actors,

Michael Jamin:

Amy Think, Amy Poller,

Mackenzie Barman:

Amy Poer, the classics. They're like,

Michael Jamin:

And do you think of them to get inspiration, or what do you mean when you mention them?

Mackenzie Barman:

I think that's just what comes together in my brain. It is all in there, and then it just all goes away, and then something comes out from it. I don't think I'm actively thinking like, oh, I need to channel Amy Po here, or be, I think the person that I'm closest to unintentionally, but I'll notice it sometimes, is Lisa Kudrow. I think I just love her so much and her isms that I feel like I might imitate her more than I even realized. Watch videos sometimes I'll be like, that was very Lisa cre. I'm like, that moment. But I think I'm developing my unique voice that's a blend of all these people.

Michael Jamin:

That's the step. And then I was going to say, how do you use art to influence what you do if you do? Yeah.

Mackenzie Barman:

How do I use art to influence?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I don't know. I guess what I'm asking is where are you drawing inspiration from? Who would you love to be? And maybe it's Lisa Kra. I know your version of them, but whatever.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I don't really know. I feel like I always have the thought in my brain that I, I'm very conscious about what I'm putting out. Is this too silly that it's dumb? Or is it too serious that I feel like, oh my gosh, I don't even know what really influences my

Michael Jamin:

Well, are there videos then that you don't put out? I mean, you shoot and you're like, eh, I'm not putting this up.

Mackenzie Barman:

Rarely. Most of those are the silly tiktoks of if I see a viral sound or something and I'll just do it, but I won't post it, I'll just do it. I dunno. It feels weird. It feels like I'm breaking some rule with myself to go outside of, and it might be this snobbish thing that I'm doing. It might be like, oh, I need to be this character actor person. And then if I break out of that and I'm just like a real girly girl, I don't know, maybe. I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

Well, but that's interesting. I feel there are certain trends and there's certain challenges you could do, and I don't partake in any of that shit. I feel like I'm too old for it, but I also feel like that's just not my brand. I'm not going to do any of that. And I wonder if you feel the same way.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I'll watch them and I'll enjoy them. Even sometimes I'll do them and I'll record them, and then I've posted a couple some, but most of the time it just feels weird to do it. I feel like I'm like, again, maybe that's that imposter syndrome creeping. I'm like, nobody wants to see me do this. Nobody wants to hear me talk about this or,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, but then, and you might be right, the thing is, you might be right. You might try that. And if you get almost, I dunno, whatever, a low view count, then you're like, I guess they didn't want to hear it then. And it may just be random.

Mackenzie Barman:

And then you're in your head like, oh my gosh, if I'm my real self and they don't like it, right? Oh my God, they don't like me, do I? And I think maybe that's part of it too. It's like I am confident when I'm acting because it's not me anymore. It's like it's somebody else. Their fear is gone really of like, well, if you don't like it, it's not me. You don't like, it's them you don't like. But when it's just me being myself, I'm questioning my humor. I'm questioning my relatability. I'm questioning my, am I girly enough? Am I quirky? It's too many thoughts.

Michael Jamin:

No, I get that. I mean, on the occasions that I'm funny in my video, I'm like, this better be funny. This guy says he's a comedy writer. What's going to throw shade at me? And they'll be, right.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. But I admire that. And it seems silly when I'm talking about it, it seems like just be yourself. I know people love me, but I don't know. It just feels weird. But I admire so much, and I watch all the videos of people who are just like, story time. I'm going to tell you this time. And I love that. I don't know. I just feel like if I do it, I'll record it and watch it. I'll be like, the story is dumb. Or I don't know, a lot of self-doubt, but it's weird. It's like I can have self-doubt here, but then I'm like, no, this is amazing. Somewhere else.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Okay. And is there any thought, I guess there isn't because you kind of improv this, but I'm always thinking, I better get too, because people got that thumb on and they can scroll so fast. Do you give any thought to that? How fast you're going to get this thing moving? How fast you're going to get to the good part?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. Because I think sometimes the music helps if people, that's why I always will use sinister music, because people immediately are like, oh, what's going on here? And I think that will compensate for me taking my beats and taking my sweet time with it. Because at the end of the day too, I love storytelling and I love of keeping people engaged with something. So I kind of let the music do that part. But I do think about that, oh, I should really get to it quickly within the first 10, 15 seconds at least. But even then, it's too late.

Michael Jamin:

It's so interesting. I don't know how we're supposed to handle any of this, but again, I guess I want to get back to you before I get to let you go, before you respond. The relationships that you've formed, I guess they are your fans and you correspond with them, whatever.

Mackenzie Barman:

And a couple have become friends, a couple of Really, yeah. There's a couple people that I've just messaged and just vibed with you just kind of, most of the time it's like nothing. But do

Michael Jamin:

They reach out to you first? Or how does that work?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, there have been a couple people that I noticed will comment a lot, and then I'll kind of randomly respond to dms on Instagram. I respond to a lot of dms, honestly. But then sometimes if there's just, you just know energetically. If they're kind of odd or they're kind of pushy or they say something weird, then I'm like, okay, bye. But sometimes they'll be kind of funny and kind of like bantering. I'm like, huh, okay. There's a girl, Faye, I love her. Shout out Faye. She's from Ireland. And I love people that are not from the United States, too. If you're from England or Ireland or somewhere, I'm going to love you automatically. But she's from Ireland, and we were kind of joking about her teaching me an Irish accent, whatever. So we were like voice memoing back and forth. And then she's the one who now Photoshops my Danny and Babs photos. She's just amazing at it. And she's like, I'll just do it. Don't worry about it. I'm like,

Michael Jamin:

Oh, wow.

Mackenzie Barman:

Okay.

Michael Jamin:

Isn't that nice? I

Mackenzie Barman:

Love her. I love her. Wow.

Michael Jamin:

It's such an interesting, I don't know, community, and I wonder how big this thing is. I wonder how many creators. There's a small circle that I seem to be in, and I'm like, is this everybody? Or am I missing about 10 billion of us?

Mackenzie Barman:

I think it's both because I feel like it's a small world. Most of the time, the people I know, the other people that I know and influencers are comedic content creators. But then there will be somebody with 12 million followers who I've never seen or heard of before, and I'm like, I did not know you even existed, but you're so famous on the internet. And I'm like, I've never seen you. So it's weird.

Michael Jamin:

And you reach out to them, or No, you just follow them or

Mackenzie Barman:

Something. Oh, no, I'll just hear about it. Or I'll see a random person pop up on TikTok and go to their profile and they have 12 million. And I'm like, I have never seen you before. It's just odd. It's such

Michael Jamin:

An odd thing. There's this woman that I follow, and maybe you've heard of her. She's digging a ton under her house, but

Mackenzie Barman:

I want to be on that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I don't know where she lives, but she has a house and she's literally digging. She has a lab coat, and she's pouring concrete and she's digging, and it's just her passion. But I don't know if she's a, I don't think

Mackenzie Barman:

She is that legal. Can you do that?

Michael Jamin:

Right. And she's not really, I don't think she's a certified structural engineer, but she has all these books and she's reading them. She's like, and this is how I learned how to do the electricity. It's like, oh my God, I just had to read this book. And so she's like a mad scientist. And then she was picked up on Yahoo. Yahoo did an article about her, and then I DMed her. Look at, you're on Yahoo now.

Mackenzie Barman:

Oh my gosh.

Michael Jamin:

There's just so many interesting people doing interesting things. I'm like, wow.

Mackenzie Barman:

No, I know. I'm deep on some tiktoks. I love conspiracy talk. I love it. I don't buy into it, but I love it.

Michael Jamin:

But see, I don't want to, don't think you want to get too far. You don't want to.

Mackenzie Barman:

I know.

Michael Jamin:

I know. You can keep them from a distance, but you don't want to,

Mackenzie Barman:

You start to tread a line where you're like, wait a minute, this is suddenly not where I want to be. That happens.

Michael Jamin:

Right? Wow. Mackenzie, thank you so much for joining me. What an interesting, again, I have such admiration for what you do and I'm a fan, and there it is. Yeah,

Mackenzie Barman:

I mean, you too. I mean, we got to talk shop too at some

Michael Jamin:

Point. Well, when we finish this, we will do that, but I want to make sure everyone knows where to find you. So tell everyone what all your handles are.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, follow me guys. I'm at Mackenzie Barman everywhere. So I'm

Michael Jamin:

Everywhere

Mackenzie Barman:

At Mackenzie Barman. I'm mostly on TikTok and Instagram. But follow me on YouTube too, because I'll be there and Snapchat

Michael Jamin:

Can find me. I dunno anything about Snap, but alright. Thank you again and don't go anywhere. I'll sign off. I won't. Alright, everyone, another great talk. Be like her. Go follow her. Just put yourself out there and then work on it and you'll get better and better. Okay, everyone, until next week, keep creating.

So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin is talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars @michaeljamin.com/webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. And you can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.

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