How to Help Someone in an Abusive Relationship

Misseducated

Hello everyone!

This week I’m sharing an interview with Dr. Tarra Bates-Duford about how to help someone in an abusive relationship. Below you’ll find a summary of our key talking points, and then the full transcript of our discussion so you can read along.

I hope you find this informative, and that it comes in handy one day. Please share the episode and article with anyone you think it would help.

Love,

Tash

💌 ✍️

How to Help Someone in an Abusive Relationship

Discussion with Dr. Tarra Bates-Duford, PhD, a forensic psychologist specializing in familial dysfunctions and trauma. You can find her on LinkedIn and Instagram.

What is the definition of domestic violence?

Domestic violence is a pattern of intentional violent or aggressive behavior. It can be physical, sexual and verbal against a close family member or romantic partner.

What are the main misconceptions about domestic violence?

* That the individual can leave (In reality, they often can’t).

* That they’re choosing to remain in the relationship (In reality, they may not have a choice).

* That it doesn’t happen in affluent communities (In reality, it can happen to anyone, from all walks of life, religions, relationship types, and sexual orientations).

How do abusive relationships often begin?

* They often begin with the depreciation of a person and mean-spirited jokes, then gradual isolation:

* E.g. “You’re stupid. You don’t do well on your own. Those people aren’t your friends. You’re so gullible. Left to your own devices, bad things could happen.”

* They suggest the person can’t do anything right, and that they would be safer if they gave control and decision-making over to their more knowledgeable partner or family member.

* Gradually the tone changes and because we accepted their language as a joke, it feels inconsistent and like too big of a deal to bring up now.

* Over time, it can escalate into violence and fears for their safety or their children’s safety.

What traits do abusive partners often have?

* They are usually insecure people who struggle with power.

* They tend to be overlooked.

* They may not be taken seriously in their own lives, so they look for people they can exert power over to feel validated.

* They are trying to compensate for feelings of powerlessness and helplessness.

What traits can victims of abuse relationships have?

* Marginalization, or growing up in a toxic family

* A history of domestic violence, maladaptive behavior, or dysfunction in their own family

* Unless we learn how to manage this or have something to compare it to, we may subconsciously try to replicate the environment that we are familiar with and rebuild dysfunctional families ourselves.

* Lack of a father figure growing up can lead to a controlling idea of what a father is that the victim confuses with love e.g., “I don’t want you to have that. I don’t want you to wear that.”

What are the signs of an abusive relationship?

* Your partner makes you feel less than, not valuable, not worthy.

* If you're constantly trying to fulfill the need of your partner without that person trying to meet your needs. There is no compromise. It's either this way or the highway.

* You do not have a voice in your relationship.

How can you stop early signs of relationship abuse?

* Have clear deal-breakers and personal boundaries that you enforce.

* E.g. Say “I do not tolerate racial comments, even jokingly. I do not accept language like this, not even in jest.”

* The Camel Exercise: Imagine a two-humped camel and the straw that broke the camel’s back. What you're willing to accept is one hump and what you're not willing to accept is the straw between them, or the things in your life that you are unwilling to compromise on. Beware of comments or language that are another straw on your camel’s back that you don’t accept.

* Announce and assert your boundaries to eliminate confusion when someone has crossed the line. If you have boundaries that have not been announced, you don't have boundaries because people don't know where you end, and they begin.

* Do not violate your own boundaries. From this, an abusive partner will realize that your boundaries are permeable and that they don’t mean anything.

* If you’re able to enforce your own boundaries, an abusive person will likely not remain close to you in your life, and eliminate themselves, which is what you want. And this can help you give space to healthier people and relationships in your life.

* Reflect on your experiences in your relationship: if a friend came to you and said she was having a similar issue that you’re having, what advice would you give to her? Would her relationship sound abusive to you?

How can you help someone in an abusive relationship as a friend or bystander?

* Encourage that person to empower themselves, and create a safety plan (see below for details).

* Don’t “add to” the victim experience by pressurizing them. If you give controlling commands e.g. “You need to leave that relationship,” what distinguishes you from the abuser? Instead, you have to create a distinct voice that is totally different from the person abusing the victim.

* Don't put demands e.g. “If you don't do leave him, then don't even bother contacting me again.” Don't give ultimatums. Ultimatums suggest that your love is contingent upon what that survivor is willing and unwilling to do.

* Remember that just because you tell them to leave their relationship doesn’t mean that it’s safe for them to do so.

* Remember that when someone is about to end or leave an abusive relationship, it’s the most dangerous time.

* Anticipate what you don’t know. If you’re suggesting they leave, where should they leave to? Or if they have kids, leave and go where? Do what? What do we do about food, income and shelter? Be able to provide some real resources instead of demanding them to leave.

* Have them keep someone in the know, like a close friend who knows their schedule, who will realize if anything happens outside the norm.

What should you include in a safety plan?

* It’s a written-out or agreed-upon plan on how to leave an abusive relationship.

* It describes when and how the victim can leave in ways that might be safe e.g. when their partner is sleeping or out of town.

* It could involve:

* Plans to make separate keys for the car

* Packing bags

* Pacing belongings in other locations so you’re not fumbling around the house trying to find things when you leave

* Stashing money somewhere, in case your joint bank account is no longer available to you

* Having cash so they can’t track your credit card purchases

* Remaining in contact with a friend the abusive partner doesn’t know about, where the victim could stay and hide at that house

* Having the numbers to case managers and Domestic Violence shelters.

* A good safety plan also includes a lot of alternatives, including plans for picking up the children from school, and what to do if the victim needs to get out of their house quickly.

How can we stop abusive relationships from happening in society?

* Hold perpetrators more accountable for their actions, not just send them to jail for a couple of hours to cool off.

* Understand that more than our spoken language, it’s our unspoken language that impacts our children. We may be teaching our children these maladaptive relationship patterns without realizing what we’re teaching them.

What else should we know about sexual abuse in relationships?

* It can happen at any relationship stage, and it doesn’t matter if you’re married or not married, if you know the person or not. If you say no, and you’re not interested in engaging in sexual activity, it’s still no. No one has the right to violate you and disrespect your boundaries.

* Some people think it’s different for married couples because they see marriage as some sort of ownership, instead of a partnership.

How might you figure out if what you’re experiencing is relationship abuse?

* Imagine that instead of yourself, a friend is recounting her experiences to you like the ones that you’ve had in your relationship. What would you say to your friend about her situation?

Podcast Interview Transcript

Tash: Hello, it's Tash Doherty and today I have a very important episode of Misseducated.

I actually conducted this interview with Dr. Tarra Bates-Duford about three years ago, but given the headlines around Cassie Ventura and Gisèle Pelicot, I think it's really important that we focus on this issue of: how do we help somebody who's experiencing domestic violence? And what can we do about it as bystanders?

The reason why I did not publish this episode originally was that when I interviewed Dr. Tarra Bates-Duford in 2021, I was also experiencing very severe PTSD following a very traumatic experience. So finally, I think now after three years, this story deserves to be told and she has some incredible tips on how we can practically help those around us who might be in dangerous situations.

Dr. Tarra Bates-Duford is a forensic psychologist specializing in familial dysfunctions and trauma. She has a PhD in Forensic Psychology and a double masters in Marriage, Couples and Family Therapy and Psychology. She's also a board-certified professional counselor and a certified relationship expert and she's currently the CEO and founder of Family Matters Counseling Group. It was truly an honor for me to get to interview her and I'm really grateful for all the really practical tips and things that she's shared. So please share this episode widely so that we can spread her wisdom.

When we conducted this interview, Dr. Bates-Duford had recently become a dog mum, so that's why there's sometimes a puppy yelping in the background. And so thank you so much for tuning in. If you find this informative and useful, please consider subscribing to the Misseducated Substack and our podcast on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It's the best way to avoid missing future articles and episode and it helps our work tremendously.

Thank you and let’s give a warm welcome to Dr. Tarra Bates-Duford!

Dr. Bates-Duford: Thank you guys for having me.

Tash: Amazing. So let's start off with the basics. How do you define domestic violence in your practice?

Dr. Bates-Duford:  I define domestic violence as a pattern of intentional violent behavior, aggressive behavior. It can be both physical and it could be sexual and verbal against a close family member or romantic partner.

Tash: What are the main misconceptions when it comes to domestic violence?  

Dr. Bates-Duford:  The main misconceptions are that the individual can leave. Why are they choosing to remain in a domestic violence situation as if it is a choice? There's also a misconception about what it looks like. There is the idea that it doesn't happen in affluent communities. And there's a lot of other information that suggests it can happen in all walks of life, all religions, and different relationship types, including same-sex. But it could happen to anyone.

Tash:  And when you talk about it happening to everyone, what are some of the ways in which you see your clients or your patients coming to this realization for themselves?  

Dr. Bates-Duford: Typically it is after the physical violence or the sexual violence has started, but like with many types of violence, it doesn't happen initially that way. It begins with the depreciation of an individual. It begins with mean-spirited jokes. It is telling the person that they can't do anything right. It is suggesting that they give full control over the more knowledgeable partner or family member. And then it escalates into violence. So, I typically see them when the violence has become more pronounced, there are safety concerns for themselves and their children, and there is a fear of what to do next.

Tash: And so when you talk about these initial signs, what are some examples that you've seen in your practice of things that somebody might say to begin to initiate that controlling behavior?

Dr. Bates-Duford: “You're stupid.” I've heard that quite often. And you know, you don't think well on your own. You don't seem to think very advanced. You think on a basic level. And it is best before you make a decision to come and talk it over with me. Those people aren't your friends. You don't need anyone else but me. There are also the concerns of: you're highly influenced and because you're so gullible, you need to be directed. Because if left to your own devices, bad things can happen.

Tash: And do you think that there is a personality type with these kinds of people who say things? Or is it an entitlement issue? Or do they genuinely believe that they're superior to their partner?  

Dr. Bates-Duford: They're usually people that are insecure. People that struggle with power. People that have a tendency to be overlooked and visible. Or people that are not necessarily taken seriously themselves. So what they typically do when engaged in maladaptively is to exert power over someone else to feel validated. So, they'll go on this whole tangent to get validity and respect in a way that is very aggressive, in a way that is not needed, in order to compensate for the feelings of being powerless and helpless or their perception of being powerless and helpless.

Tash:  And because victims can have a close familial or romantic relationship with this person, is that why they're more likely to believe what their partner is telling them, or is it just more of a slippery slope over time?

 Dr. Bates-Duford: Those that are victimized typically come from a place of societal oppression, marginalization, a toxic family themselves, or a history of domestic violence in their own family before venturing into a romantic relationship. Their community may be filled with fewer resources. There are a number of reasons. Sometimes, if we're in a dysfunctional family life, unless we learn how to manage them, unless we understand what makes them maladaptive and dysfunctional unconsciously, we replicate the environment to which we are familiar.

So, whereas we may leave a family situation saying that'll never be me, unless you have something healthy to compare it to, we are going to rebuild that dysfunctional house because that's what we know.

Tash: And so, for your clients or your patients who have grown up in a dysfunctional family, what kind of things do you point them towards that would be a good sign of a healthy relationship or a stable partner? And what are things or red flags that they should look out for if they haven't had stability in their home relationships?

 Dr. Bates-Duford: When we speak about it, and initially they want to come in and they want to talk about the violence, which we do, and creating a safety plan. But we talk about their own upbringing, and we tease out some of the things that may have contributed to this. For example, I've worked with a number of women that didn't have father figures in their lives. So, in their mind, fathers are very controlling, and demanding and need things done a certain way.

So, they go out and they search for someone that they think will provide the best sort of guidance for them. Something they feel they didn’t have because they have nothing to reference it to. And as they get into the relationship, it is initially seen as love. I don't want you to wear that. I don't want you to have that. You know, I don't want you to be associated with these people because it could be a bad influence on you. They take all these things as representations of love. Because that's something they didn't have before, but as the relationship goes on and it escalates into violence, then they began to see that this is not healthy. This person is not doing this out of love, but out of the desire to control and manipulate.

Tash: And so is there a point in which you wish your clients or your patients would get to before the physical violence escalates? Or do you think they really need to step over the threshold of that physical violence in order to see the relationship for what it is?  

Dr. Bates-Duford: No. And my hope is when you start being depreciated, and that's something that is objective to the individual, right? If someone makes you feel less than, or not valuable, not worthy, then those are signs. If you're constantly trying to fulfil the need of someone else without that person trying to meet your needs, there is no compromising. It's either this way or the highway. Then those are signs that are indicative that this relationship is not healthy. You do not have a voice in this relationship. And without a voice, you open yourself up to a lot of things that could be unhealthy. You open yourself up for violence, verbal aggression, or sexual aggression.

Tash: And could you give us some more examples of like, when you see people saying things that make you feel depreciated and what that might look like? Because even if it's a joke, for example, um, if somebody calls me a b***h or something like that, it starts off as a joke and then it becomes normalized as part of the conversation.

Dr. Bates-Duford: And that's how it's given initially. It's given that way, so you will gradually become accepting of what happens next. Like if someone said to you, “You're so stupid!” That would immediately send out a red flag to you. However, if they say it in a way almost jokingly, like, “You know, you’re so stupid right now,” we tend to accept that a little bit more because we're thinking, “Hey, this is a joke. Let me not be too uptight about what's being said, because it's all done in humor and fun.” But gradually the tone changes. Like even now, when I hear women referring to each other and men referring to women as a b***h, “You can be such a b***h sometimes.” And we take that, right? What is to stop them from changing the tone? We've already accepted the words. It's just a small step to accept the change in tone. So, when that happens, it's important to speak up and say something in the moment, because once you accept the words, you have to then later accept the tone change. Because, I said this to you before, it wasn't a big deal then. Why is it a big deal now?

Tash:  And then if you didn't say something and you didn't lay down the line or put a mark in the sand and say this type of language is appropriate or this type of language is not appropriate, especially in front of friends and family or something like that.  

Dr. Bates-Duford: Deal-breakers. We all must have deal-breakers personal barriers that we establish for ourselves that say, “Hey, This is something I tolerate. These are the things that I do not tolerate, even jokingly. I don't joke about, you know, from my example. I don't think depreciating other people, I don't think using racial jokes or any of those things are funny. So even in jest, I don't accept them.” So, I make that clear. And just like with a friend, female friends calling each other b*****s, I don't accept that even in jest. So, it is up to us, the individual, to create those personal boundaries and barriers. “Hey, this is not what I accept. You know, you may have, exerted that in a joking way. However, my boundaries remain the same. I don't accept it in any context.”    

Tash: And that really goes back to these initial signs and hopefully it wouldn't have to escalate if you had personal boundaries or clarity about that for yourself. And so in your practice, how do you recommend people address this? Do they write things things down? Should they have a list of things that people can and can't say?  

Dr. Bates-Duford: So, what I get them to do is something called The Camel Exercise, right? And The Camel Exercise is typically a two-humped camel, and it has a straw in the middle of the two humps. So, I usually ask them in a joking way. Okay. What do you think this is representative of? What do you think this means? It's actually the straw that broke the camel's back. What you're willing to accept in one hump and what you're not willing to accept, or the straws, are the things in your life that you are unwilling to compromise on. And I find that sometimes in seeing that people are better able to connect with it and implement it as part of their lives.

Because if you have boundaries that have not been announced, you don't have boundaries. Because people don't know where you end, and they begin. So, if you create those boundaries and you assert those boundaries, it eliminates confusion. With many domestic violence survivors, because they've accepted the jokes, which quickly escalates. It's like: did I take that the wrong way? What if I interpreted that wrong? Did he or she mean it that way? It eliminates that because you have already established your boundaries of what you're willing and unwilling to take. So, when someone crosses the line, that's clear. That's apparent. So, it's important to have these boundaries and preserve your boundaries.

The worst thing you could do is violate your own boundaries, which has happened often. You say you're not willing to accept this under no circumstances. Then someone does something that deliberately violates that boundary. Then you laugh it off. That's when they realize your boundaries are permeable and that they really don't mean anything.  

Tash: Let me just say that I'm very excited to share all these tips with everyone. And in the case of being a bystander, it's your good friend or it's someone else in your family, what are the signs at that point? And what can you do when it's not physically happening to you?  

Dr. Bates-Duford: You can provide suggestions or even a little bit of education. But what you don't want to do is “add to”. And what I mean by that is if someone is being controlled in a relationship and you see, that you don't want to then go and say, “You need to do this,” or “You better do that,” because what distinguishes you from the person in the domestic situation that they're in? What is to separate the two of you if you both are saying what this individual should and shouldn't do? You have to create a distinct voice that is totally different from the person that is controlling or abusing that other person. You don't want to sound like you're echoing what they're saying.

So the most important thing you can do is educate. Don't put demands, which are seen that. “If you don't do leave him, then don't even bother contacting me again.” Don't give ultimatums. Ultimatums suggest that your love is contingent upon what that survivor is, you know, willing and unwilling to do. Again. What separates you? And what happens is you feed into the manipulation. They don't really love you anyway. If you don't do what they say, then you're out of the family. I love you. So rather than creating distance between the survivor and the abuser, you’re actually helping to push them together. So, one of the things you want to do is recognize how you can be of help. And recognizing that a lot of abuse situations can become deadly. Just because you tell them they need to leave doesn't mean it's safe to do so.

We do know that when someone is about to end a relationship or leave an abusive relationship, that is the most dangerous time in a relationship. So, it is important to be aware of that. It is important to anticipate what we don't know. If I'm suggesting that you leave, what exactly am I suggesting that you do? Leave? And go where? If I have kids leave, go where? Do what? What do we do about food, income and shelter? Be able to provide some real resources, instead of just shouting out demands that have nothing behind them.

Tash: I think that's such an important point and it's really important to separate yourself and not make your love for this person conditional, right? Like, it's your sister or your friend and you've got to say, like, whether or not you leave this person in this situation, I'm still going to love you, even if you're in danger.  

Dr. Bates-Duford: It is. It's like Romeo and Juliet. You try to pull them apart and you make them want each other more.  

Tash: And in terms of interventions, like as a friend, what else can you do when you see this kind of controlling behavior happening? Or even physical violence or sexual violence? Like how can you intervene in a positive way when it doesn't involve you? ​

Dr. Bates-Duford: What you can do is encourage that person to empower themselves with information. Creating a safety plan. And most people just say: get out. You should just leave. However, like I mentioned before, leaving is actually the most dangerous time in a domestically violent relationship.

Keep someone in the know. And that means having a close friend that you periodically check in with that knows what your schedule looks like and knows where you should be, right? So, if anything happens, they know that is outside of your norm because they know what's going on and they're also aware of your schedule.

So, if you don't show up at a certain place or if something happens, they can be able to provide critical information. Creating the safety plan also gives you more than one option. If you create a safety plan and you decide to leave, this is what we need to do to keep you safe. And it provides the survivor with some strength, some options, and support. Because when times have very high tension, sometimes we get a little disorganized, a little scared, and confused. So, by going over the safety plan, it allows that person to still retain some sort of control. Like if this happens, I'm going to be able to do this because I have created and set up a plan of action for me and my kids, or just myself once I leave this situation. They need to know that they're being supported. But also someone is providing comfort and care without making demands on them because they're being demanded upon a lot already. What you want to do is create that calm in these really chaotic waters.

Tash:  And what are some of the most normal or important components of a safety plan? Like, what would you put in a safety plan?

Dr. Bates-Duford: Okay. And I'm glad you asked that. A safety plan is a written out plan. Or it's an agreed upon plan of action. Say, for instance, it's violent and you want to leave. You make a plan to leave at a certain time when that individual may be not there, or that person may be sleeping. You can actually have a second key for the car made. There are plans to have bags packed and placed in a certain location so that when you leave, you're not fumbling around the house to find things. You can have some money stashed somewhere, just in case you have a joint account, and that person closes off the account to you. Or you don't wish for that person to track your usage through a credit card. It is preparing for what may be the inevitable. It may be maintaining contact with a friend that you hadn't spoken to in a while or a friend that your partner may be unaware that you remain in contact with. That person could be a reprieve from what's going on. He doesn't know we're still friends. We're still in communication. The way we are, maybe I can go and hide out at that house. It's also having the numbers to case managers and DV shelters. It is a plan that includes a lot of alternatives. If I can't leave at this time, I can probably do this. If the kids are in school and I need to leave, I have to call the school ahead and what do I need to do to get them prepared, to get out of the building quickly? It depends on identifying your options.    

Tash: So, in terms of dealing with the perpetrators, and what we can be doing as a society to stop domestic violence, raising our children differently or something like that, what are your other ideas of how we can reduce the effects of domestic violence happening to people?

Dr. Bates-Duford: Yes. We can start holding them more accountable. With domestic situations, oh, you spend a couple of hours in jail to cool off. We can hold them better accountable for their actions. And, also, we need to understand that children don't necessarily learn from our spoken language, but it's our unspoken language.

If you're in a situation where you're being abused or you're abusing someone else, children will typically mimic that behavior. Remember they never do, as you say, but do, as you do. So, it's important to model healthy, communicative styles and healthy ways to negotiate disagreements and conflict. We have to be mindful that we're not just in a conflict with our partner. If our children are around, we are creating examples of how to engage as a family or as a couple. So, that's very important because we can get lost in our personal disagreements and have no regard for children. We need to be very aware and very cognizant of what we're teaching our children without realizing what we're teaching them.

Tash: Yes, this point about holding people accountable is really important because it goes back to our original thoughts about boundaries. Having your own boundaries and enforcing them is a form of accountability. And in that case, if you're living with a domestic violence situation, you can nip it in the bud as to what you will and won't tolerate in your relationship.

Dr. Bates-Duford: People are more likely to comply with them or eliminate themselves altogether. Either way, the outcome would be a lot better. If you can't respect my boundaries, then people usually kind of drift away and fade into the background. And that's what you want. You want to include more positive and healthy people in your life. And those that may be toxic and unhealthy, you can eliminate them or they eliminate themselves.    

Tash: So those are all the questions that I had for you. Is there anything else that you would like to add or little things that we didn't mention so far that you think people should know about?

Dr. Bates-Duford: Yes. I do want to note that sexual violence, even with the survivors, sometimes it's hard to see. Because in a relationship, even now, a lot of women think that, okay, we’re married or we're in a relationship, you know, it happened, but it's not considered rape or forcible sex. And we have to change the mindset of that. It doesn't matter if you're married, not married, in a relationship, not in a relationship. If you say no, or you're not interested in having or engaging in sexual activity, it's still no. And no one has the right to violate you and disrespect your boundaries. The same rules apply if you are married, if you are not married, or if the individual is known or unknown to you.    

Tash: And in terms of boundaries as well, when it comes to romantic relationships, what kind of boundaries do you help your clients with in terms of autonomy over their own bodies?

Dr. Bates-Duford: I help them create boundaries where if they're not comfortable with things like, um, I work with individuals that the partner is insistent upon bringing in someone else into a relationship. And my goal was not to enforce my own views of what a relationship looks like, but say, “Okay, are you comfortable with this?” And what I hear is, “No, I'm not comfortable with that.” Then preserve those boundaries. Don't give in to something for the sake of someone else if you are not comfortable. Then when they decide, I don't want to include anyone in this relationship anymore, the relationship can become violent. You know, now you're being a b***h. It was okay then. Are you jealous? So, we have to think about the things that we're bending for. And then we decide to stand up. Because at some point, the person that is really kind of holding us down is not going to allow you to stand up. Because you bet once why not bend again?

Tash: And when it comes to relationships, if you're married, why do people think those boundaries are different if you're married or you're not?

Dr. Bates-Duford: Because they see marriage as some sort of ownership. Oh, I'm, I'm the wife. You know we’re married you can do whatever you want. Because for whatever reason that marriage certificate license suggests ownership for some people. Oh, that's my wife, I can do whatever I want. Instead of partnership, to some people it represents ownership. So, there needs to be an understanding of what a marriage typically and healthily looks like. Because it's the same thing as if you adopt an animal. I own this animal, right? And if we have these boundaries and these parameters set in place to protect animals, why aren't we putting the same initiative and the same action into a human life?

Tash: And so in your work, do you help people break free and get over sexual trauma as well? Like you're working on almost a triple action plan of helping people escape a domestic violence situation, understand and work through sexual trauma, and what is your approach in that sense?

Dr. Bates-Duford:  My approach usually starts with getting them to recognize it because even when they come see me, they come see me for some other issue. It's never really about the issue. It's like the whole, you know, saying that they come in wearing the mask. So, they will come in a lot of times with sexual inconsistency. Like “Oh, he wants it all the time. I don't want it.” And this, and it's always something different. And then it leads to other places like, “No, he yells at me, but it's not too bad.” Or, “You know, only when he drinks does he hit me.” So that's when we start to tease out, what's really happening. And asking them how they feel about what's happening. And if they were speaking to a friend about what is happening, but what do they think is going on in the life of that friend? Sometimes we need to separate the individuals so they can see the picture clearer. So, I'll say something like, “Okay. Say, for instance, your best friend came to you and said these things, you know, and she asks for your advice. What are some of the things you would have said to her?” And it's usually at that moment that there's an “aha” moment. “I would tell her the relationship is dangerous. I would tell her to get out. I would tell her this is abusive.” So sometimes in order for them to see it, you have to step back, so they can see the picture in totality.

Tash:  Thank you so much Dr. Tarra Bates-Duford for joining us today. Thank you for your expertise, your insights, and all of your amazing frameworks about the camel and even the idea of how you would treat a pet if you were adopting them, which I think is very fitting considering that you've just adopted this puppy. We're so grateful that you could join us on Misseducated today, and I hope for all my listeners out there you found this instructional, insightful, and helpful. Lots of love. Bye!

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