S4: E24 - The F Word (On Forgiveness) Season Finale with Connie Baker

Uncertain

Forgiveness has often been used in the church to sideline and silence victims, either by perpetrators intent on controlling their victims or by systems of people who believe they’re doing the right thing.

Connie Baker, author of Traumatized by Religious Abuse and a therapist who works with survivors of religious trauma, joins Katherine for this important discussion on a topic that is nuance, personal, and definitely emotionally charged.

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Transcript is unedited for typos and misspellings

Katherine: [00:00:00] So I'm very excited to have this conversation. This is like, I have like a handful of conversations that ever since Uncertain started that I wanted to do, and one on forgiveness is one of them.

Connie: Yes. I love that. I'm so glad.

Katherine: Forgiveness is a, I will probably talk more in this episode than I normally do because this is a subject that I am very passionate about the way that forgiveness has been misused and then also having a really genuine experience of forgiveness. Yes. That I feel like was real. Yes. And looks nothing like what I was told. Forgiveness is

Connie: Right, right. To me, so much of it is dismantling what we think it is. So yeah. I'm excited to talk with you Katherine.

I mean, you're as much of an expert in this area as I am. It's like, you know, I do have some very strong feelings, which I think are very compatible. Yes. I, I think, but, and I've, you know, I've done, I've [00:01:00] done 18 years of clinical work to say, Hmm, I got some reasons why I think what I do, but I just want, I mean, yes, to me, let's make this baby a discussion.

Katherine: So yes, it's a, it's a convo, it's a conversation and one that we need to have because it's just, it's still so misused and I've had so many people throughout my life come at me to want to make sure a, that I have forgiven or that I want to forgive or that I'm not bitter. Right. But the standard of assessing.

Whether or not I'm bitter, have forgiven is whether or not I talk about what happened.

Connie: Totally. Shut up. If you're, if you're not bitter, you can't talk.

Katherine: Exactly. And so to, to realize that most people think forgiveness and bitterness means don't talk about it. And if you've really forgiven, then you don't think about it.

And it's just like in the past. Yeah. Something that never happened. So we're gonna get into this. I [00:02:00] love it. Let's do the, the kinda outline that I was thinking for this episode is as just kind of following the outline of your chapter in your book, the F word, which I love, and it's probably what I'll call the, the episode first talk about.

What forgiveness is not, and some examples what forgiveness is. Some examples, and then I would love to end, you have a self-evaluation at the end of the chapter, and I would love to kind of end with us sort of doing that and like how that might work for people. I have it written down so I could read it to you.

Connie: I just like, ok. Remind me. What are some words? Forgiveness that I prefer? Oh yeah. Do I need to, I like my, I like my questions. Do I need to forgive? Do I want to forgive? If I've decided to take a short step, what is my next step?

Good. I'm happy with that. Let's keep the book. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's keep the book available.

Katherine: Okay. Alright. Let's start with what forgiveness is not how, what would you say? Forgiveness is not. And [00:03:00] then just like maybe an example of how you would describe that.

Connie: Yes. Oh, forgiveness is not, and I love that we're starting here.

I love it because Katherine, you and I both know, there's so many things people think it is. I think first of all, when we're talking about religious abuse, forgiveness is not something that can be demanded or required of someone who's hurt us. It's not no period. Forgiveness, I think theologically as well as psychologically is something freely given.

Yes. Something that is, that comes from the person's coercion. If I heard a person and tell them, you've gotta forgive me. It just kind of disintegrates the [00:04:00] whole idea of what forgiveness, the, a beautiful forgiveness cannon should be. So there's one thing, and I think you, you and I both know so many examples of how, and maybe this is just a great place to start, how this is leveraged .

By specifically leadership that, but it's also systemic. It's a two level thing where the leaders can say, you've gotta forgive me, which has all kinds of implications for them maintaining control. Yep. Because we'll get into what it's not here in a minute too. It's not necessarily reconnecting or reestablishing a relationship with that person.

We'll get there in a minute, but when it's demanded or our peers will say, you have to forgive because they are part of a system. Yeah. That supports that and, and says, you've gotta forgive and you've gotta get back into an intimate, [00:05:00] trusting relationship with that person if you've actually forgiven.

And so that demand and requirement for forgiveness, to me is number one. It is, forgiveness is not something that you can demand or require. So that I think is a foundation because those of us who have been around and probably listening to this podcast, know what I mean by leaders demanding that and systems that require it.

So, when a peer tells you you've gotta forgive. But they are speaking for the church authority, i e God. It is still a power play. Yeah. It's still a power play and whether intended or not, doesn't matter. It's still a power play. So that's the first thing. Any other thoughts on that?

Katherine: Just, the verses that are popping into my head are the 70th times seven verse and you know, [00:06:00] forgive as God has forgiven you and the, as far as the east is from the West, God will remember your sins know more. And those are the verses that are used to support this belief system.

And it's so convincing. It's right, so convincing, and I'm so glad you said systemic, because it is systemic, it's embedded into it. When those verses pop up as they did just now for me when the forces pop up, what would you say to someone, how, how, how do they combat these things that have used?

Connie: I say that is an, that is probably the question I.

And I want, if we can remember, maybe I should take a note. Let's ask that after we've gone through some of these ideas, honestly what it is Yes. What it's not can what it's, I think both of those, because the problem with those verses is [00:07:00] these people are bringing a definition and assumptions .

Around what forgiveness is. So I wanna circle back to that.

Katherine: Does that sound okay? Yeah, no, definitely. Let's circle back in the, the. The way that this is like spiritually abusive is those verses like even that verse, far as the east is from the west, will I remember your sins know more.

It sounds like this just like, oh, beautiful, wonderful. You know, wiping the slate clean. And it starts from this place of just like this. Like really, you know? Oh, of course I want someone to do that for me. So of course I'm gonna do that to someone else. And that reality that it's weaponized. And when forgiveness is not what forgiveness is not, it's not a weapon and it's not meant to be used for coercion.

Connie: [00:08:00] Yes. And control.

Katherine: Yes. Or silencing. So maybe we don't know what it is. Maybe we don't have a definition or anything, but if we feel like someone is coming at us, And, and trying to coerce us into an emotion or an action that doesn't feel aligned with the con with what happened in a situation of abuse.

Maybe we can't even name it as abuse, but if we're feeling coerced into that response, then that's just a pause. Just a pause right there and just say, something's not right.

Connie: Huge pause. Something is deeply not okay. I think that's, we can say with confidence. The other thing that comes to mind is the way I hear forgiveness talked about in Christian circles. It's a cure-all. Yes. For the damage inflicted. In other words, I always use this example. That [00:09:00] feels a little absurd. And I use it cuz I want it to feel absurd. If you are going through an intersection on a green light and you are slammed into the driver's side with an a, a driver who is drunk and it slams in and crushes your upper arm, your ribcage, your hip cracks, your femur busts, and you've got, and you have some internal bleeding, they rush you to the hospital and they do all these surgeries and they're fixing you up step by step, and somebody comes to visit and they say, oh my gosh, how are you feeling? Well, ooh, okay, but boy am I still in a lot of physical pain. And the person looks at you and says, well, have you forgiven the drunk driver?

Katherine: You like it, it's just literally the same thing.

Connie: It's emotional pain. Yes. [00:10:00] In other words, there's this bizarre assumption that if someone deeply, deeply wounds you that when you forgive, you're gonna be great. You're not gonna feel pain, you're not gonna have any repercussions, you're not gonna have any trauma.

You're not going to have PTSD. Your brain wiring will not be affected because if you just forgive All will be beautifully taken care of. And you shouldn't be sitting there in the hospital with all those bones broken if you've actually forgiven. And of course, that sounds so absurd and bizarre to us and correct.

It's crazy making Yeah. To say that, that forgiveness is just gonna fix it all and I'll feel great enough once I forgive. Now you and I both know, we were talking about something that both in the secular and religious realm, forgiveness is well studied. It's a beautiful, good thing done, [00:11:00] inappropriate places.

So this isn't, we're not down on forgiveness, but it has, it has huge limitations to trauma recovery. It is one piece of a very big pie, I think, of eventual trauma recovery.

Katherine: It's a piece of the pie and it is reductionist to focus everything on recovery around forgiveness and to make that, to make that a requirement even for recovery.

I think it's like a separate thing and it is. Yet, it's always, I was watching the documentary on Michael Jackson's victims and Oprah Winfrey does an interview, like a follow-up interview to, to talk to the two men that were featured in the documentary. Two of Michael Jackson's victims and Oprah Winfrey has done a lot to raise awareness about mental health.

She does understand [00:12:00] a lot about trauma, but she ends up asking these two survivors if they have forgiven, and I just felt very defeated at the end that she would bring that up to these two people and, and sort of made it as like a marker of Right. The field. They were right. And the final question also carries the ultimate amount of weight.

Connie: Like not Okay. No.

Katherine: Yeah. And, and like basically ending with, you still got some. Room to grow, you still, you still got some places to go. You're not fully healed yet because you haven't, you can't answer that question with this life. Right. You know, or, and, and then one of the survivors was like, I don't even really know what that word means right now.

Oh, oh, good for them. I'm really glad that they said that. But I think they were sort of portrayed as like, well, until you kind of [00:13:00] know what that means, you, you're still not healed, which they're not. Right. And, and we are not. And, and it does kind of, Draw a line in the sand like, once you can say you have forgiven, you've passed the line and now you're healed. Which is a whole other subject.

Connie: oh, totally. Yes, they do. They have overlap. Sure. Aren't they the same thing? Absolutely not. Yeah. There's, it's that, you know, that person laying in the hospital bed may not even have a big, have a hard time forgiving. Maybe it's like they're an addict. They have issues.

Stuff happens. There, depending on the person, it, there, you know, there's a range of how people respond, which are all okay. It's also okay to rage and be angry at that driver for a long time and if that's okay too. But does that mean that person is [00:14:00] out of the hospital because they kind of we're able, for whatever reason, their psyche could let it go.

Katherine: O know, I know. And it is as, I love the example that you gave of just the person being in the hospital because like forgiveness doesn't mean you no longer hurt. No, it doesn't mean you're no longer in pain and that you're not, you know, going to therapy for years, upon years, upon years to deal with the damage that was caused.

Connie: The other thing that comes to mind is forgiveness often in our circles is, you know, or past circles, whatever. For some of us, it is equated with some really important delicate areas, and that is forgiveness is often equated with trust, intimacy and the big word reconciliation in Christian circles, which [00:15:00] all three of those have.

Have over, you know, those are, those are kind of a group of things. And let me say this right off the bat, I'll stand by This. Trust in healthy people is always earned. Always earned. It's like, and, and they're can, we might throw out a little bit and trust somebody and see how they do with it, but only un unhealthy people, indiscriminately trust and, and, and, and as I say that, yeah, I was a recovering one of those.

I'm a recovering one, you know, I used to trust innately and just you're saying, but forgiveness. Is in a whole different realm. Intimacy, trust and reconciliation in, in my mind, should always be earned.

That is not dependent on me completely. It's [00:16:00] 50% dependent on me. 50% dependent on that other person and there, and how safe I feel with them. So forgiveness, a lot of times, especially when it's being leveraged, abusively says, you need to forgive me. Now the funny thing is, if that leader saying you need to forgive me, has no stake in controlling the other person, why are they even saying it?

Because if forgiveness in their mind means you can come or go in this relationship and I need to re-earn your trust, they're not gonna tell you you have to forgive them. If, you know, and so I think those of us who've been told that we have to forgive, need to say, okay. First of all, what do they mean by forgive?

And first of all, you can't cannot demand it of me. But then in our own mind to say, well, maybe I'll want to forgive eventually, what does that mean? And the implicit demand [00:17:00] in forgiveness is you reestablish a relationship for me, with me, and then for the purpose. Of me being able to continue to control and have power.

Yeah. And they're never gonna say those when never, there's some cultish situations that absolutely do say that most of them are nuanced, nicer, respectable institutions are not going to say, so I can control you. Right. But they're gonna put it in spiritual language so that I can help you be who God wants you to be, so that I can influence you toward God.

So, I mean, all the words that are used for control. That is one thing I, that's probably one another huge thing that I just wish people could hear and say, oh, forgiveness is utterly, forgiveness is something I freely give to anybody I want. And I can keep myself safe doing it. I'm, I have, I can have boundaries and safety and still be free of that person and have let it go.

Whatever [00:18:00] words you wanna use for forgiveness, we can talk about those, or other words to use, because I think you're titling this the F word, right? Yes. Yeah, because that's that. Because a lot of people go, I don't even wanna use that word. Yeah. It's just too loaded. Like utterly understandable. Totally. So if I've already let this go and I feel free, that does not mean I have to be back in a relationship.

So that's on that trust note.

Katherine: So a person does not trust indiscriminately. Could we also say that a healthy person does not demand trust? And so if someone is demanding, even if it's through the language of forgiveness or not, Hey, I'm the pastor. Hey, I'm the therapist. Hey, I'm the blah, blah, blah, and I deserve your trust simply by my title.

Or simply because of God ordained authority, that that is not a healthy posture if they just expect you to trust. And if I come into a [00:19:00] space, and, and I've been in this situation before where it's typically with men who are just so just have their feelings hurt when there's some reticence, especially if they're like in authority position and, and, and make my story all about them, which is exactly what's happening in this twisting of forgiveness, is centering what that person did to injure you around the person who did the injuring and not the person.

Who is injured, where it should be, where that spotlight should be on. Absolutely.

Connie: And you know, I don't wanna get too far off of this, but I just gotta throw it in here. Often it is an authority figure. Often it is male, but here, and not, but, but, and here's another context that I see is the demand for transparency, like within small groups.

[00:20:00] You are supposed to be able to share your soul. You're supposed to lay yourself open to us. That's the rules of this game. In this group, you, we are all going to be open and vulnerable and authentic. And in other words, you have to share things you're uncomfortable with and don't feel like. You know, the group has built up enough trust, yet that demand can come in a systemic, like a small group or a, or even a large group sharing, I guess.

But I see this in small groups too. This demand for trust Is just, it, it, it's insidious and it, especially when there's a need to control,

Katherine: Yeah. And like with any spiritually abusive system, there's the, there is the, the good people who are doing it because they just wanna be good.

And someone told them, this is what good people do. And which is even the, even the forgiveness thing. Like, yeah, someone told me God wants you to forgive and I want you to do what God wants you to do. So you need to forgive. And they're, [00:21:00] they're good human beings and they're just misguided. And then there are people who are deliberately leveraging, and you used the word leverage at the very beginning, leveraging things like forgiveness and reconciliation and trust and intimacy to deliberately control.

Yes. And they both exist in that same system.

Connie: They totally do. And the hugely unfortunate thing is they do equivalent damage. Yes. It's like it's like, you know, as you know, probably my, my clients and people I speak to will say how. How much of this is deliberate? And it's like, well, that's a great question.

And there's a huge gray area in there of awareness and non-awareness on the part of abusers. And ultimately it just unfortunately doesn't matter. It still does the same. It's like whether I just happen to be distracted and plow into a car, or whether I'm drunk driving and plow into a car, it's the same level of damage.

And so [00:22:00] that, it's unfortunate, but yes. Oh, man. You know, Katherine, the only other thing that I wanna put on what it is not, and this is a little controversial, and we're gonna nuance it a little bit, all right? And that is, I feel like forgiveness is not essential for healing. There you go. So I agree with you.

And there again, and, and there again, I, I put that out there and I go, okay, of co I'm gonna nuance that. But I do think there's parts of that. This don't need to be nuanced. I have seen people. Well, I've certainly seen this. People never go through any formal forgiveness and be 100%. Well, now sometimes I think they kind of processed and let stuff go as they went almost unconsciously, which I think can happen with forgiveness.

I think I was part of my story. There were a few things I needed to forgive. But overall, see I forgive too quick that, that, that was part of my story, which laid me wide open for abuse is the trust, the Oh, it's okay. You know, there's [00:23:00] a downside to quick forgiveness, first of all can often be incomplete and denial rather than forgiveness.

But we'll talk about that. But yeah, that's, those are things, and we can talk more about the whole, it's not a requirement for healing.

Katherine: And as we get into talking about what it is not being a requirement for healing. And then I really, really, really appreciate that you said that it's, the damage is the same, whether someone's intent was good or not.

And putting that back in the car accident situation, like whether I really intended to run over you or not, it still caused the damage.

Katherine: Forgiveness as we step into the, what is it? Is forgiveness easier if the person meant to do it or didn't?

Connie: I'm thinking that's such a good question, Katherine, and I think there's a wide variety of answers to that because forgiveness is so complex.

It, it, it, it's all kind. There's all kinds of psychological, I think, mechanisms that go on with forgiveness and. In some ways, well here's a great therapist. Denture. In some ways yes. In some ways, no. So, cause I, you know, I, I think there is, I [00:25:00] think there is a part there. It can, can be a little easier to let go if you can see some sincerity of motivation.

Yeah. And go. Alright, that said, I'm gonna still come back to it. Still did the same damage. And so my car is still in it and I'm still in ICU. No matter whether you just happen to glance on the side of the road and you're completely, you know, awake and sober and not looking at your phone, it still did damage.

And so I think there's a mixture. I also think it, let's put it this way, I think it's kind of individual. I'm thinking about the several people that I've needed to forgive in my story. Some of them were just a lot easier to let go of. Yeah. Interestingly, it was easier for me to forgive my sexual abuser than it was the church leadership that kicked me out.

Yeah. Cuz I kind of viewed my sexual abuser as pathetic. [00:26:00] He was powerful, but he was an alcoholic and, you know, he was falling off a cliff and grabbed my hair and took me with him. And that does not excuse it. But I also, just because of my framework about the person It's like I just like you got to a place where you potentially.

Katherine: Well, of course he did that kind of like a Yeah.

Connie: It's like, yeah. That's kind of where your whole thing was leading. Yeah. And it was utterly not okay. It was so wrong and so, but there again, I'm thinking of my story and, and these different psychological processes that I went through and how that happened with different people .

And who, how that intersects with who I am and my personality and my framework on life. It's a complicated process and so, I don't know. What do you think about that? What do you think about whether it's easier with intent? That's a great question.

Katherine: I think that it definitely impacts [00:27:00] whether or not you, you remain in a relationship or re engage in a relationship.

I think it's less about forgive or not forgive, and more about whether or not I will end up trusting them again if I see. And then also even some, and I just think of the people who have used forgiveness as a way to kind of silence me. And they're doing, coming from a place of like, they think that this is what God expects and like, this is what I need to do to be a godly person, and so I need to forgive.

And so they're kind of in that framework. and those people, most of them I'm still in relationship with. And the way that they handled that was painful. Yeah. But I can see that they were genuinely trying to help. And so it does make it a little easier to just continue to engage with [00:28:00] them.

I'm just thinking of a couple people specifically. And, and, and this comes down to how I would define forgiveness which is I. I, and, and I think you even describe it a little bit like this in your book is a release of responsibility. And that's how it looked for me when I, so my main abuser.

I have a lot of people who have abused me in the church context. But. And when I realized, like forgiveness happened without me consciously thinking about it, like, and I, when I realized that I had forgiven him, it coincided hand in hand with me suffering my relationship permanently with him.

And yes, it's completely opposite of anything that I was ever taught. And, and that's when I say it was a release of responsibility. When I released responsibility, the only reason why I stayed in a [00:29:00] relationship with him was because of damaging teaching about forgiveness. Yeah. And feeling like I needed to stay in a relationship with him so that I could always leave the door open for him to repent and always give him access to me.

So just in case he changed. Yeah. And when I finally realized and acknowledged the magnitude of the damage that he had done, that was when I was like, we're done not engaging anymore. This is a dangerous person and every time I'm in contact it reopens things and we're done. And so I severed that relationship and then that release that a lot of people describe with forgiveness of just, whew.

Yeah. That's when that came of just, yeah. I'm sorry. I am no longer responsible for saving him, changing him, [00:30:00] and then I'm also no longer responsible for the damage that he caused. Hmm. That's it.

Connie: He can deal with that. You're not releasing him of responsibility. You're releasing yourself of responsibility.

Katherine: absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And now, and so, like, engaging with someone who, whose intent was malicious versus someone whose intent was genuinely care. Like one you can work with, one you can't.

Connie: Right. And even, and there's also another angle for me in the reconciliation piece, which we're talking about forgiveness, which is different, but the reconciliation piece is also that they own the damage done, even if they didn't intend to, but they're still justifying it under that old paradigm or their paradigm that caused them to do the damage to me, then they're not safe still because it's gonna happen again if they don't [00:31:00] become aware and see what happened and say, oh, I see the damage done and now I'm going to shift my frame of reference to not re, re, re re-injure.

So yeah. Yeah, yeah. I love that release of responsibility. Those are some really good words to say. Oh man. There are so many, there's so many good layers to that, Katherine. I love that. Yeah. A lot of times, I'll call it different things like well letting go, releasing, you know, if you wanna, if you wanna take it out of Christian Christianese releasing unwanted negative energy, this is about me getting rid of something, of some toxin I'm carrying.

Not arguing for a past or wishing for a different past and Yeah. You know, holding onto that demand or desire. So those are all things, probably my favorite that I like is the idea of [00:32:00] canceling a debt. Because I like it, because, well, here's what I do with my clients and here's what I've done in my life.

As they say, I just wanna forgive. I'm like, great. Because I just wanna be, I just wanna be free. I'm like, great. What I'd like you to do is, let's think about this in terms of a debt, and I would like you to write every offense On the left hand side. And I want you to describe a monetary value to that offense.

Katherine: Some offenses are smaller, some are million.

Connie: Yes. Yes. Man, I'm taking you to court. You know, and I want you to, I want you to literally go through every offense. And that's in, that in itself is an intense process and I think a therapeutic one because especially if they have a Christian background, so many of us want to sweep it under the rug and [00:33:00] call that forgiveness and say, well, they hurt me.

And I'm like, slow down. How, when? In what way? With, with what intent? Whatever you did to go down and have that ledger and that other ledger, how much did that cost you? And to me, I. Defining the massive cost. Especially when we're talking here, not little slights, the people, but huge lifetime damage people have done to us, especially in religious abuse.

That to me makes it very concrete and that where I'm like, no, I'm not gonna let you say, well, they hurt me cuz that can often be a sweeping under the rug and you gotta be ready to do this. A lot of PE people go, oh, that's a little too intense. I said, I honor that. No, no problem. And I'm like, let's just, you know, step back.

You know, I'm not gonna of course push somebody to do that, but for them to come back and have those ledgers and now [00:34:00] say forgiveness is, is looking at that final massive number and saying, I'm ready to cancel the debt. I'm ready to let go of it. I'm not gonna keep it in collections forever for myself emotionally to say, Nope.

That is what you owe me. That is absolutely what you owe me. And I'm letting it go. And, and I think there's some, there's freedom in that first to acknowledge the vastness of the debt. Because if we minimize it, I don't think that's true for Yes. Yeah. But if we say, no, this is the, this is such a big deal with all, its all it's particulars and I'm letting it go for me.

Yeah. Not for them. That's another issue. Forgiveness is not necessarily for them. For, for, it's for me.

Katherine: Yeah. And with that it is for me, forgiveness is for me, I get to decide when I could decide where I get to. If it really [00:35:00] is for me, then hundred percent I get to decide. And the releasing of that, or the letting go of that is, is about me.

Connie: 100%

Katherine: And adding the magnitude of the damage and acknowledging the magnitude of damage is needed, I think, for forgiveness to happen. Because if you're not acknowledging the magnitude of the damage, then you don't really know what, what you're letting go.

Connie: Right. That's exactly right. Yeah. You, you're saying, you're saying you're letting it go, but what is it?

Katherine: Right, exactly. And I think that like my forgiveness, that was like accidental because I had, I had just decided, Nope, he's not getting forgiven. He doesn't deserve it. Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. Not, not doing it, not going there. And yes, so it was totally accidental in and getting to [00:36:00] that place of, of realizing how bad the damage was and realizing that this person was dangerous and, and severing that relationship.

And that was where that release came from. And, and not holding him accountable myself, because I don't, my job is not my job.

Connie: Well, and it's so great, what you just said too fits this metaphor in that I am not going to continue to let him take my money. Yep. I am not going to continue. Every encounter now costs me $1,500.

No, I'm done. You don't get anymore. And that's the, that's the No, I'm stopping the bleeding here. I'm stopping the debt bleed and I'm not into it. So yeah, those are, those are, I think, different. There's a lot of this is, I love it because there's so many ways to look at what this thing is.

Katherine: And even just the idea of [00:37:00] like that releasing of responsibility. Oh, shoot. My mind just went completely blank. So yes. If you have more to say, feel free. I completely lost it.

Connie: As I always say, it'll come back if it's needed. Right.

Katherine: Exactly. It'll, it'll pop back up

I guess I'm just like this, like thinking about forgiveness and it gets me really emotional and then my, my brain just, it's emotional.

Connie: Yeah.

Katherine: I'm just thinking of like the folks who have basically required forgiveness and like, means that you can't tell.

Ah, there it is. There it is. That it was, that's what it was. Story, story, story, story. Can't tell your story. That means that you don't tell your story. And that was like their litmus test of if you were bitter or not. And with that releasing of responsibility, for me, I became much more vocal about my story because I was no longer concerned about protecting my abuser and yes, no longer carrying that [00:38:00] responsibility to protect him.

But then also realizing I wanted to share my story and yes, my story, I can talk about it if I want and I can say absolutely. And it's, it's part of my healing process. It's. Also because I want to help people and I want other people to hear, hear these things and know that they're not alone. And that's for me, 100% for me.

And they're, my abuser like, role in that. And like, I don't, I don't think about, I used to, but I, I don't think about what is he gonna think of this? Yeah. If you hear this, is he, is he gonna change? Is he, you know, is he gonna be angry? Is he gonna, you know, I, I'm not thinking about how he's gonna feel about me telling my story anymore cuz he's just not a part of it.

He's not a fact. What agreed him?

Connie: Yes. Oh, beautiful. [00:39:00]

Katherine: Yes, but not a, a linear thing because the desire for revenge, I'm like, is there for revenge? Does that like cancel out forgiveness? Because I'm like, I still, I still, I still think about, I still like do kickboxing and I still picture picture his face when I'm kickboxing.

Connie: Another important point, Katherine, and that is if I know you just brought a great cultural subcultural framework in the church of saying if you tell the story, you're clearly still bitter. The other thing that comes up is if you're still angry, you're bitter and you haven't forgiven, and I'm like, okay.

First of all, I still, when I watch through the years my, the story that I've had several abuse stories, but the big one that's like in my book and stuff, I think about, this is now 33 years ago and I've watched through 33 years. Them hurt other people. Yeah. [00:40:00] And I get pissed. Yep. Every single time because it's not okay.

Is that bitterness? No, I just, my system does not like bitterness. Some people, and let me say this, I also wanna talk a little bit about how bitterness. Serves as a protection. Yeah. And that it's, and that I wanna give a lot of latitude there. Now, I do think bitterness eventually makes us unhappy, but there are reasons it is frightening to let it go because a lot of times it's serving as, as part of the boundary, as part of that protection that we have.

And I, I wish I'd have had more bitter protection at certain points. Frankly, my system could have used that. But just because I get angry does not mean I'm bitter or wrong, or have not forgiven. I'm forgiven. I'm that goal. And I'm still pissed because I'm looking at [00:41:00] somebody else getting

Katherine: I'm still pissed.

Connie: Yes, exactly. And do I feel that all the time? No, I don't. But, but every few years something will trickle back to me and it's like, Are you kidding me? You know? And I think that that anger is totally appropriate, and it does not stay, it does not chew my insides out. I'm just pissed about it because it's not okay.

So I think that, that, thinking about the story we get, we get a lot of judgment about if you've forgiven, this is what it's gonna have to look like. Mostly because we're uncomfortable, especially with women being angry. So so if you're angry, you're, you've got a problem. If you're a woman, especially sometimes a man, but men get away with a lot more anger than we do.

So it's like you, if you're, you're angry, there's a problem. And if you're telling your story, you're clearly out for revenge and you haven't forgiven. And I just think there's a lot of weird stuff out there [00:42:00] about judgment in, in that realm of saying, we're gonna decide whether you've forgiven or not.

Katherine: Someone who was on the podcast a couple weeks ago described bitterness and the way that bitterness is actually used in the Bible as a grief of spirit. And like if we took the word bitter out and we put in grief of spirit, and if someone says, you're bitter. And, and I translate in that my brain grief of spirit.

Connie: Yes, yes. Yeah, totally.

Katherine: Absolutely. Grieved of spirit and will likely be, and that's where the trauma thing comes in too. And, and if you're, if you have that trauma still sorted in your body, which I do, I still have the trauma of my upbringing still sort in my body and like that's gonna bring up those emotional flashbacks at un unexpected times for any particular reason that is [00:43:00] uncontrollable.

Like, it's not like I can't manage. When that's gonna pop up. And that is not bitterness. That's a very different experience. That's an, that's an emotional flashback.

Connie: I love that grief of spirit. And then again, sometimes we're using words that probably have some different definitions and, but you're right.

It's like, yeah. That we're defining better, like that. Heck yeah. Yes.

Katherine: Yeah. Grieved of spirit. And I hope that I always will be grieved of spirit for those things and, and always be angry. I hope I will always be angry about abuse, right. Abuse that was done to me and the abuse that was done to other people.

I hope that I don't see, I don't have a goal for myself or desire to ever get to a place where I'm not angry about it, because that's not healthy, but like that I am, I want to be angry about that. Yes. Yes, I want to, when one of my siblings calls me to tell me a [00:44:00] story of something that they just remembered and it was a horrible thing that happened, I want to feel anger at that.

I want to be grieved that that happened because it's worthy of grief. It's worthy of anger, especially, it's so worthy.

Connie: Yes. It's a, it's a very. Appropriate response. It's a healthy response. And that's where there, again, a whole nother topic, but how, how the, how religious communities view anger is and who gets to be angry and who doesn't.

You know, it is like, that's a whole nother topic, but there's, but that ties deeply into this topic of forgiveness, who, you know, how, which sections. Of the authority structure. Get to be angry at who, which genders get to be angry. I mean, all of this. Or you know, how long you're allowed to be angry.

Connie: How long, oh, talk about rules.

How long you're, and how long you're supposed to be grieved [00:45:00] in spirit. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Whatever has passed. Yes. Yes.

Katherine: Thank you. So well, I think if anything can be concluded from this conversation as it is nuanced, it is complex and it is not something that we can come at someone with and say, define if you have or if you haven't.

Like, yes, I think that the, and no one can come at us and tell us if we have or if we haven't, and decide for us what that looks like. If anything is concluded here to just sort of wrap up, I would be lucky. Kind of like to go through your evaluation, just so, so folks can kind of do this on their own.

Absolutely. You have three questions at the end of your chapter that you ask just to kind of, for us to just ask ourselves and I mean, we can even just do it in real time. And we kind of talked about this one a little bit, which is, what are some other words for forgiveness that I might prefer?

What about you, Connie? What are some words you prefer?

Connie: Right. Unfortunately, I threw out my favorites, or, I mean, [00:46:00] I chatted about them earlier, but I wanna, I guess I'd like to create space for whatever metaphor works for you. I mean, that's the issue. There's something, there's some level, I do think at core, I think we could say there's some level of disconnecting from.

A harmful connection with that person. I think that might be one of the best ways to put it in some metaphor or some language to say, how do I let go, how do I release myself From being hooked Into something that is, is putting poison in me. So yeah.

Katherine: Poison from that person because we're still interacting with them.

Connie: Absolutely. And even if you're not in a, sometimes they're dead, but they're still poisoned in [00:47:00] you because of that mental fight that you are in with them. And that's different from being mad. I'm not in a fight with my abusers anymore. Some of them actually died. But it's like, I am not in a fight with them, but I can get pissed off because it's not okay.

And so I guess there's, there's that emotional hook that, and there again, releasing the emotional hook does not mean all the damage. Again, be really careful. All the damage is not healed by that. But it is one piece of the pie where I can go. Okay. Yep. Be gone.

Katherine: That's your next book title release. The emotional hook.

Connie: Yes. There it is. Perfect. Thank you for that release.

Katherine: The emotional hook.

Connie: Yeah. And I think that's why I'd like to give people creativity and a lot of latitude and space to say, how am I gonna define this for me?

What is that gonna look like? And, and nobody else gets to, nobody else gets to have input [00:48:00] in that if you don't want their input. Have you watched,

Katherine: Do you watch Ted Lasso?

Connie: Have I watched Ted Lasso?

Katherine: I'm in season three. I haven't finished season three, but whatever episode I just watched Ted has a conversation with his ex-wife, or soon to be ex-wife, I guess. I don't know if they're divorced yet or not. And he says just basically like, I just wanted to let you know how I feel and that I'm not okay.

Yes. Okay. And then he just closes the computer and he walks away. And I thought it was beautiful because that is, for me, what forgiveness is, is that release of responsibility that might lead me to having a conversation with someone so that I can close the door and like, I'm not walking away from this.

And I would do that with someone who I would say the intent was good. Yeah. I might think that with someone who, who I actually feel like they're coming from a good place. I need you to know how this impacted [00:49:00] me. And then I walk away from that conversation with no expectation that they're gonna

Connie: Right.

Right. I'm saying this for me, not for

Katherine: you. Yeah. And, and, and releasing myself of the responsibility of changing their mind or convincing them. And, and also if it's not safely done, we're done walking away, putting up, raising that relationship. And, and as we're talking this conversation, and I'm talking about the people who have, who have kind of weaponized forgiveness against me, even with a good intent and it did, it did cause a little bit of boundary in the relationship and, and realizing they're not a safe person for me to tell my story to.

So I don't tell my story to them. Right? That's how they're gonna respond. I am not responsible for that. I can take my story elsewhere. So that's how I would define it. Release [00:50:00] of responsibility for myself, releasing myself of responsibility, not releasing responsibility. Releasing responsibility. Right.

Connie: Right.

Katherine: Second, the last question. So the next one is do I need to forgive? Do I want to forgive? I think that's a great question and I'm like, I'm gonna start using that with my clients just like, even if they say the words, a lot of, a lot of folks will say, I need to forgive.

Like, I, I need to, I need to like, I need to, I should. Yeah. Yeah. But then to just follow that up with like, do you want to, yeah. How have you seen that play out?

Connie: Just in, I know people can hardly believe this sometimes, but you know, at 18 years of clinical work, I have never initiated the conversation around forgiveness because I don't need to.

It's always them coming up and saying, [00:51:00] oh my gosh, I feel like I need to forgive, or I want, or I wanna forgive, or, and I'm like, great. Okay, let's chat about forgiveness. And I think. I really trust that because if a lack of forgiveness is now causing my client problems, it's gonna come up. And great.

I'll wait for it. I have no, I have no agenda to rush this and, and so, yes. Do I need to forgive? First of all, I'm going to say no, forgive. Well, one thing we haven't said explicitly yet is forgiveness is a thing that happens in time. It, it's a thing that often is a huge progression of time. It starts maybe in a little way and, and, and then it kind of stops or starts or this is, and that is beautiful.

That's fine. That is whatever [00:52:00] your experience with forgiveness, Yeah. Great. That's it. Let it be, like you said, some of yours just happened. Like, and some of mine was a dawning realization, but they just didn't have power over me anymore and that I just didn't care. Yeah. I just, I just didn't care and I'd let it go.

Now, again, not let it go. Like, like it didn't happen. No, no. There was a, there was a debt register there and there was a debt, you know, stuff. But yeah. And so then do I want to, sometimes people really want to and are saying it's not even a should for them, it's just I really, I wanna unhook.

And they're struggling too. And I think that's where, if you're struggling with that, I do think therapy can be helpful because there's a lot of mechanisms that keep us hooked that are important to non-judgmentally and with curiosity, explore and say, what, what if we twinkle [00:53:00] our nose and. You're you've forgiven.

And a lot of times it has to do with vulnerability or lack of protection. Somehow it's, there's still, and so then the question becomes, which I think is a very hopeful question, what can you use in place of a destructive bitterness or, or resentment that's hurting them? What can you use in place to make sure you are protected?

And see, I love how those happen simultaneously for you. It's like, oh, breaking contact is my protection. I don't, I can let this baby go now because I don't have to, because now I've set something else in place. Does it have to be up for everyone, a whole severing of the whole relationship? No, but it can be, it can be boundaries put in place to say, I will protect myself.

Katherine: Thank you for naming the need for safety before you can forgive. Yes. Not like you need to be in a safe place. If you're still in a marriage [00:54:00] and you are being abused in that marriage and you're still in the marriage in everyday contact with this person. Don't even think about forgiveness.

Right? Just get to that later.

Connie: Right? Deal with it because you can't, because the ledger is growing too fast. You can't sit there. Oh, I've forgiven. No. And another metaphor I use is in, I work with a lot of domestic violence. I can sit here and keep stitching up all the knife wounds, but you're just getting more all the time.

And I'm willing, as a therapist, I'm willing to kind of help keep stitching, but the knife wounds continue. And that's not to pressure them to leave, cuz I don't believe in that at all unless their life is in danger. But we need a realistic view. You're not gonna heal well if you're still constantly exposed and connected to someone who has power over you that is hurting you.

You can't fully heal. So you gotta get away from the knife eventually.

Katherine: Yep. If you're actively in this [00:55:00] situation, just table that table forgiveness. Listen to this episode later. Worry about this right now.

Connie: Totally. I think that's it. And so do I want to Yes. Great. And if you have blocks then, you know, get a little help with that.

And look at the issue of safety. Look at the issue of how can I, is, could that be, I think that is often not the only one, but a primary thing that says, I can't do that. I want to, but I just can't. What's that about? And usually people judge themselves. I'm just, I just need, I, I want to, but I just can't, what's wrong with me?

It's like, no, you actually have a part of you that is saying we need to be kept safe. So how do you work with that part? And says, good, you're right. We do need to be kept safe. Let's put some in place.

Katherine: Yes, yes. Oh, I love that. I love that. And that might, that might be the answer to the next question, which is if someone comes to that place, so I, I'm ready to forgive, I wanna forgive.

What are the next steps?

Connie: Yeah. Well, first of all, [00:56:00] let's remove any barriers. You need to feel safety, you need to feel ready. And at that point I've got, I got kind of a step by step that I think rarely anybody has ever done all these steps that I've worked with. But I think that they are, But they're helpful because it makes it concrete.

Some of us are very concrete thinkers and forgiveness is an abstract a lot of time, Lewis is why we have a hard time defining it. But part of this, again, go back and we're gonna define stuff in concrete ways. What were those offenses? I think writing them down you know, as therapists, we want people to externalize either through talking or putting it on paper, get it out of them and externalize it.

So to put all the offenses down, write them down. And if there's a truly safe person to bring into the process, I think that can be very meaningful. I also think this can be done alone [00:57:00] in a beautiful, very profound way as well. But if there is the possibility of doing so, do you want somebody safe in the mix with you? As you write these down, as you assign values, as you make a concrete, great, bring 'em in.

And then I. I love the whole idea of a symbolic gesture of some sort like a ritual. Yes, absolutely. And I've had people who want to burn the paper.

Katherine: Oh, I love it. That was, I came into my head, I'll be burning that paper, burn it, burn that paper.

Connie: I've had people in my office shred it. Shred the paper, get a good void stamp.

Put okay, cancel or whatever is on that. Something symbolic to say all these offenses that I was super concrete about. Or if you don't wanna get rid of that paper, which I think there's some great reasons not to seal it in an envelope. I know I've kept sealed envelope stuff in my client's files before.

It's like, you bet it's here. You know? [00:58:00] If you ever need it, you got it. We, you know. But to have it something symbolically letting it go, whatever works for you. I think that those can be some helpful concrete ways to Yeah,

Katherine: yeah. Oh, I love that. I love that. Those are some, yeah. Great. And I love, yeah, the idea of adding in a ritual.

And I think that that could be helpful for so many of us who have left church spaces that were so very ritualistic and now we don't have any rituals. So to recreate a ritual, and make something that's ours.

Connie: Yes. The church for all its fault and difficulty is a place in our culture that still does carry some, some potentially beautiful rituals.

Where a lot of other domains, other societies have rituals around all kinds of stuff because I think that's part of our humanity. Our culture is like, oh, we don't do the ritual thing. And I think, oh, sometimes our ritual is about honor. I want to honor this process I've just gone through [00:59:00] with this ceremony, with this sacred moment to be there again. I'm not talking about Christian / Christianese sacred, but just a sacred honoring moment of saying, this is significant. I'm gonna give it weight.

Katherine: I love that. I think that is a great place to end too. And I hope this is an episode that folks will be able to just listen to over and over and over and over again when those 70 times seven versus. Pop up in their mind reminding you of the ways that these teachings have been used against us and, and not actually been for our flourishing and our healing.

So thank you for talking about this. I'm so excited.

Connie: Oh, me too, Katherine. Thank you for having me. It's always a delight to chat with you and I'm, I'm do, I am hoping too that others can just, can find some space, permission freedom in this discussion to, to find their own way. So [01:00:00] yes, find your own way.

Katherine: Yeah. With that encouragement.